Announcement

**Cal** · October 27, 2000, 01:22

let me be the first to say, (again)

Yay! The revised version of Second Front is released!!!

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

**Xin Yu** · October 27, 2000, 15:00

Seems easier than the previous version . I grouped my forces into 3 to attack the following places: The English beaches, the Omaha, and the Utah.

Eight English commandos paradropped to Langrune and took the city on turn 2. The other two paradropped to the beach on the left and took out the 15cm battery. Gliders were spread all over and absorbed the 15cm shells. As a result, none 15cm shell was left on this beach by turn 3 and the landing crafts could easily land all over the English beaches, then come back to become drift mine folders.

The Omaha beach was a little bit harder. Supported by air force, Combat engineers were landed so that the 15cm batteries were killed before a massive landing could occur.

A couple of rangers sneaked through the enemy lines and took the city closest to England on the upper-left corner (airforce has successfully emptied the city), with it the two floating mines were disbanded and air support could arrive in one turn. Reinforcements were then landed there and the city became a killing ground for the German armors. Quickly all German forces in that area were attracted there, leaving the landing on Utah beach a piece of cake.

**kent-jo** · October 28, 2000, 14:10

Hmmm Don't know if Nemo likes this....

14 hours and 43 minutes.....

**PolarisGL** · October 28, 2000, 14:33

Kent-Jo, isn't that like 1 or 2 turns?

**Kull** · October 28, 2000, 22:44

This is much tougher! A few comments:

Drift Mines: Overall a much better approach than the old invisible ones. You don't have to worry about accidental "hits", so that speeds things up. And it gets the airforce out of the mine-hunting business which is much more historical. But you almost HAVE to sacrifice a bunch of empty LCVPs or suffer total disruption of the invasion. That does slow down the pace of the landings, so I guess that's a good thing. (Grrr!). One big problem. They attack LAND units!! I lost an engineer in the river square near Port-en-Bessin, which was not a happy moment!

The Port-en-Bessin "Port": It took until turn 5, but it's back in business. For the most part this means I still don't have to make the full frontal assault all along Omaha Beach. Although I hate to say this, you probably should keep a Floating Mine in 73,59 and home it to Cherbourg. That will force the player to slowly bring his units in thru the little beach-river section nearby. Speaking of which, since the Germans refuse to guard the Sand Dunes nearby, its a great place to land troops safely. So long as this area can be occupied painlessly (the 15cm battery is an easy kill for an engineer), it will constitute the landing zone of choice and Omaha will not be a bloodbath. Now if that gun was replaced by a well defended 210 "city", full of unfriendly MG42s......

New 210 Batteries: It's turn 5 and I still haven't taken out any of the 210 bunker/cities! I'd have Pointe du Hoc, but I ran out of attackers while trying to kill the ammo. Man, is THAT annoying! If you could give them all names, that would add to the atmosphere a bit.

Inland 210s: The ones at 94,68 and 34,44 seem a bit problematic. First of all since they are size one cities, capturing them will "break" the road at those points. Secondly, I'm in no hurry to take them out since they block German reinforcement from that direction. The second issue may not be a big problem, but consider adding some roads around them or move them back from the main road.

La Hogue: Probably should put a Bunker in this city to keep it out of early play. But home it to Quinneville so it can be taken out easily once the invasion turns north. Please leave the nearby "air cordon" through the mines, as it's almost essential for getting the airforce onto the peninsula.

New Floating Mines: You rat! The mines near Isigny eliminated my old back door strategy. You might want to add another mine to protect the nearby 15 cm gun, because my Cruiser WILL take it out when Pointe du Hoc falls.

**Captain Nemo** · October 28, 2000, 23:38

I wasn't able to testplay this entire new version so there may be some problems, possibly even errors that I could have overlooked. If you find any please let me know.

Xin Yu: The city you were talking about, nearest England, that became a Panzer killing ground, which one is it?

What's the take on the new mines? Keep them or toss them?

What about the 210 bunkers? Better than the old style?

Any thoughts on the Canadian Infantry? I like the graphic and the fact that it is historically accurate to have a lot of Canadians in the invasion... Did they add anything to the offensive?

I landed US troops East of the Port-en-Bessin minefield to advance on Bayeux... Not historical. Should I extend the minefield further East create a wide gap between the US and British beaches?

In my replay of D-Day I was quite successful destroying the bunkers and taking the Britsh Beaches and Utah... Omaha is still a challenge. Pointe-du-Hoc required every Ranger and Engineer in the area but was finally dispatched.

I will build roads around the Bunker-Cities to avoid the gap that appears in the roads when they are destroyed.

What do you think of the new Flakvierling unit?

**DarthVeda** · October 29, 2000, 00:15

I still think a lot could be done with the tech tree, nemo, outside just techs for cities conquered.

You could have special reinforcement units available only through the tech tree as a one time deal.

**Kull** · October 29, 2000, 00:56

Some additional thoughts:

1) "Chaining" during the First Wave: I suspect many of us are using the "on-the-fly" unit transfer method to swap weak units on the LCVPs for more powerful ones on the LSTs. This is not historical, gives the human player a big advantage during the critical first few hours, and should be prevented. Fortunately it IS possible to keep people from doing this without resorting to a "house rule" (which, IMHO should only be used when all else fails). How? Give the LSTs a movement of "zero" during the first 5 or 6 turns. That way only empty LCVPs can unload units from them. You would have to divide D-Day into two parts (6 hours each), but this would ALSO let you add a lot more events during D-Day itself!
EDIT: This would also bring a screeching halt to the nefarious practice of "escorting" LSTs in to the beach behind a shield of LCVPs.

2) Bangalore Torpedos: With the extra event space, you could add those Bangalore Torpedos I've been begging for! But all the unit slots are taken you say? No! Use the Tiger or Panther slots (or both!). The torpedoes are "zero-move" units also, and since there would only be a few of them and they'd all "die" in the first few turns, they wouldn't be around to mess things up later. Plus, the human player would WANT to kill them or risk having a Tiger tank appear suddenly on the beach to his rear!

3) East of Port-en-Bessin: Yep, I'm doing the same thing. Probably a good idea to extend the mine field. Or, you could replace the 15cm battery with one of those nasty 210 "cities". or.....

4) 15cm Cities: I assume the use and location of the 15 and 210 batteries are historical. Therefore, to use my ideas for "new" 210 cities (replacing the 15cm batteries on either side of Port-en-Bessin), why not change the "no-wall" city graphic to 15cm instead of a different facing 210?

5) Xin's City: Probably La Hogue (hence my comments in the previous post)

6) Flakvierling unit: Nice graphic! Very effective at keeping the fly boys at bay.

7) Canadians: Haven't used them yet (they're all aboard LSTs...see comment #1)

8) Drifting Mines: If these were submarines you'd have the best of all worlds.
- They'd be invisible until you tried to hit one.
- They wouldn't attack land units.
- Destroyers could be used to "scout" for mines. Right now they are almost useless.
- You'd probably have to make them all German (or Luftwaffe) instead of Kriegsmarine or else they might transport the 15cm and 210 shells. Wouldn't THAT suck!
[This message has been edited by Kull (edited October 29, 2000).]

**Xin Yu** · October 29, 2000, 12:08

Battle of the peninsular:

The city on the upper-left corner is Barfleur. Turn 2 you can land an Engineer near La Hogue to eliminate the 15cm battery. Turn 3 move this engineer up and on turn 4 occupy Barfleur (after the air force has emptied the city). The air force can protect the engineer by eliminating/blocking enemy units from attacking him. To be safe, I used a couple of rangers as well so at least one of them would be there. Two mines will be disbanded and your transports can pass through, thus the units in England will quickly arrive. Also, your airforce can reach this city from Pool AFB in one turn after the mines are gone (which means you can use a plane for 3 turns before sending it back to base), so the city is well protected.
On turn 3 send 3 mustangs a little bit toward the upper left corner of the map, so on turn 4 they can reach the edge of the map and kill several Luftwaffe planes. This reduces the risk of air raid to Barfleur.
You can eliminate the two 210mm cities near Barfleur by attacking using an engineer, followed by a heavy artillary, and commandos/tanks afterwards.
All nearby cities are easy to occupy. And all enemy units in this area will be attracted here so you can land on the Utah beach without any trouble.

Battle of Omaha beach:

Use planes to empty a city and block the routes of counter-attack, then land engineers and rangers to occupy the city. Two of the cities are only defended by infantries and can be your target.

Battle of the English beaches:

There are only two 15cm batteries in this area. First turn, paradrop several commandos to take care of the left one. Then move your ships which carry armors to the left so that the 15cm battery on the right cannot reach them. Commandos should also take Langrune on turn 2 and troops can land due north of the city. Use air force to empty the fortress square near Langrune so your landing troops will not be threatened. The fortress square northwest to Le Hamel is another landing point. Enemy armors will arrive soon (from Caen) so always have planes ready to protect the cities. It is dangerous to air force to attack cities in this area.

Other hints:

Send two fuel caravans to the 210mm cities, wait for one turn before attacking -- the cities will grow to size 2 and you'll get the city instead of destroying it (and have the road disappeared).
Drift mines have move 1 only so just stay away from them will be fine.

**PolarisGL** · November 4, 2000, 10:20

Captain Nemo, I sure am loving this scenario from the beginning to where I am now (not far, but hey... time is of the essence with me right now).

Your art is fantastic. If you wouldn't mind, could I send you (via PM) a link to some units I have composed and you can judge them? I need an existing Civ2 artist that is around these forums to judge some of my art. If so, thank you!

They include:
Slave units from the 19th century
American infantry and other American units from the 19th Century
19th Century French units
19th Century British units
19th Century Austrian units
(and then, if I can get them to you):
15th Century British, French, and Spanish units (I believe)

**Spectrex** · November 4, 2000, 21:25

It would be nice if someone made a strategy guide for SF... just for those of us having trouble... Not me of course.

Nemo, can you elaborate more on what it means to "fix" the files, or is it just so horrendously complicated I'd never understand it in a hundred years.

I also have one suggestion: include a .scn file with the download so the scenario can be played MP. It would be fun to have one player as the Allies and one as the Air Force.

I'm not sure if you want to change something like this so late in the dev stage, but I think that the B-26's should be enabled during the first part of the scenario. For one thing, there were hundreds of airstrikes by high level aircraft before the main invasion force hit the beaches, for the specific purpose of clearing out the heavy guns. I've also seen some pictures of B-26's over the invasion fleet. Maybe enable all planes for the first 4 turns? Planes should also be able to stay aloft for another turn, to make up for them having to detour around the invasion forces. Also, it may just be that I suck, but I've found that on D-day the Air Force is good for nothing... they can destroy about 8 medium-weak German units every 3-4 turns, which really isn't very much, considering that there are 500 German units in the invasion area.

Also, one final question, and this is the recently-restarted-civ-player in me talking: doesn't MPGE come with FW and CiC included? If this is so, why do some FW features (i.e. multi-civ control) not work using MPGE?

**Case** · November 4, 2000, 23:01

Spectrex, use the search function on these message boards to hunt down the old SF topics if you (or a 'friend' ) want some strategies

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith

**Captain Nemo** · November 5, 2000, 02:08

Regarding "fixing" the FW files for play in MPGE.

You need to start a hotseat game then pick SF.sav as the game you want to play. Pick Allies and Airforce as your Civs.

When the text tells you to save as SF.sav you need to save as SF.hot instead.

And finally you need to edit SF.bat so ALL the "Delevents" commands point to SF.hot instead of SF.sav

Not terribly complicated if you know how Civ2 files work together.

Regarding the Airforce I made a clear choice because IMHO D-Day was fought and won by infantry landing on the beaches. I already use the available P-47 and Typhoons to clear out most of the German cities (Not defended by bunkers/gun batteries) the balance hammer the German tanks to the East of Caen... Any more Airforce and D-Day would be way too easy.

Polaris:
I will gladly take a look at your units. My E-mail address is in my profile.
BTW I don't consider myself a good artist, just an average one with a will to learn...

**Spectrex** · November 5, 2000, 12:31

Nemo: Ok, I can do that What about the idea of including a .scn file for MP purposes?

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Second Front, Revised Version

Second Front, Revised Version

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