How to have 80+ units in a game

[DirkZelwis]

Hello!
I don't know whether this has been said before, as this is my first try into this part of Apolyton. And I don't know if it's got any special use for you. The idea is based heavily on Captain Nemo's "RedFront". And this seemed to be the best place to put the idea.

How to have 80+ units in a standard game or scenario? In a standard game, we have 3 different ages in weapons development. These 3 are: Before gunpowder, before mobile arms, and after mobile arms. These "turning points" are highlighted by the obsolescence of barracks. The idea is, to remove all units from "before gunpowder" from the game (around 1500 A.D. should be a nice date) before the first "after mobile arms" comes up. One doesn't build Phalanxes or Triremes around 1500, nor does one build Howitzers or Bombers. One simply doesn't need those units in that period of the game! What you would need is 2 sets of "units.gif" and 2 sets of "rules.txt". Set1 has units.gif + rules.txt for "before gunpowder" and "before mobile arms" time frame, Set2 has it for "before mobile arms" and "after mobile arms". And you switch from Set1 to Set2 around 1500 A.D.
I can see two possible problems. First, the computer players have to be in the "time frame" too. Second, the military advisor (key F2) will show wrong numbers and units, especially in "fatalities".
As English is not my mother language, did I make the idea clear? And is there any use for it?
Bye, Dirk
"Dirks and Daggers."

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by DirkZelwis (edited June 25, 2000).]</font>

[PolarisGL]

In "Gettysburg" I simply switched on Free Support for Fundamentalism for every unit and made both the CSA and USA fundamentalist with titles of Major General Robert E. Lee and Major General George G. Meade.

I have over 1,200 units on the game board for Gettysburg. I know I have about 635 for the Union alone.

[KhanMan]

Polaris: Did that allow you to build that many types of units, or that many units?

(ie. was that over 1200 different units, as chariot is different from phalanx, or merely 1200 units of 8 or 9 types, like 200 artillery, 400 infantry)

-KM the LLSS

[Michael Daumen]

Here's why it won't work:

At your switching points you will have a mix of advanced and obsolete units. How can you differentiate between which units stay and which go. Seems to me you will need more than just 3 separate rules and units files. You may be able to get around this if the human player has Leonardo's from the start, but that's a huge advantage.

Or, you have a house rule, when you discover Gunpowder disband all of your older units. That pretty much destroys all the momentum you may have had in any current offensives. If I remember what Nemo has said earlier, the computer will disband all of its obsolete units once they research the tech that makes a unit obsolete. So the computer would suffer no matter how you do it.

The trick is to find some way to make sure that at a discrete time, all units older than a certain slot in the units gif are gone from the game and can't be brought back.

I'm not ripping on you personally, it's just that Fast Eddie and I have discussed this in the past.

[PolarisGL]

1200 units on the game board, not to build.

[blackclove]

But, now that we know something about the structure of the .SAV files, it would be possible to write a program that searches for units and converts their type to a valid one for the new rules.txt file. That's the only way I can think of to do it.

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-Blackclove
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[Andz83]

I always knew that we are on a way leading away from the "classic" Civilizaiton II

Hi Dirk, hab ja lange nichts von dir gehört!

[St Leo]

after mobile arms.

...that should be ignored, forgotten, neglected, and jumped on grave of.

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[Panda]

I think this could be made to work. As long as you don't use all 63 units at any one time there's no reason why you can't have a progression in units using the same rules.txt.

For example, in a game I can build 4 infantry types

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 (say 3 makes 1 obselete and 4 makes 2 obselete, so you can always build 2 types).

In the next period you have

5 - 6 - 3 - 4

then,

5 - 6 - 7 - 8

This effectively doubles the number of a single unit type over three epochs.

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"The man who can smile when things go wrong has thought of someone he can blame it on"
[This message has been edited by Andrew Livings (edited June 26, 2000).]

[Fast_Eddie]

**NOTE - NOT CHECKED FOR SPELLING**

Ah yes, the multiple-units file. God I hate it!

It's possible to do it to get 80 units, but then you've gotta remember that some civs just plain don't advance as quickly as others, so instead of there being distinct "chopping off" points where everything behind it is gone, and everything in front of it can be built, a mixture is required (MD and I spent a couple months of emailing ideas back and forth for a scenario. I still don't have that MUL complete! ).

So you have a couple stages in era. Ancient and early medievil in "Before Gunpowder", late medievil/renaissance and colonial/imperialism in the "Before Mobile Warfare" era, and then early modern and late modern for "After Mobile Warfare DISCOVER" (There you go Leo. ).

So, then you need to sit down, and think of the units you want, and what age you want them in. I would suggest around 25-30 units per era if I were you. Could be up to 40 though (would not reccomend) if one era needed a TON more units that the others.

Now, you count off your slot. 63 for FW-MPGE, and 90 for TOT. You mark down what the special effects of each slot are, and then you spend the next 9 months figuring out just what the you're doing.

But seriously...you have to figure out what units will come in, and when. here's the example

Era 1 - Slots 1 - 30 Used (barring special effects)

alright, then files are swithed. In Era 2, lots 1-20 are made obsolete, but are still there, making it possible to use these units, but not build them.

Era 2 - Slots 1 - 20 Obsolete Units; 21 - 50 Active Units

Then the files are switched again. Slots one through 20 can be used now, because the AI has more than likely killed them all. A way to make them worthwhile to the player is to make their production high, so the player will want to disband them in favor of more powerful units. Slots 20-40 have been made obsolete and cannot be built any longer.

Era 3 - Slots 21 - 40 Obsolote Units; Slots 1 - 20 + Slots 40 - 50 Active Units

There. I just told exactly what to do.

BTW, anyone who wants it just has to say the word and I'll send you the latest copy of my MUL for the Cold War scenario to browse over.

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[DirkZelwis]

Hello!
Basically, I thought of this because I wanted some more units, there are 4 or 5 I *definately* wanted. And Captain Nemo's switching of Summer/ Winter units inspired the idea. When I thought it over again, I discovered what Fast Eddie wrote: Much too much work.
So the idea is "freeware", use it or don't use it as you please. I decided against it, too much work for my pleasure.
Michael Daumen, I don't feel ripped. My heart is not with this idea, but with playing and enjoying Civ2. And I think you made an error, or misunderstood me. Yes, one can still have Phalanxes at 1500AD, or even at 1900AD. But wouldn't you disband them for 20-30 new units in the game?
There a not several "switching points", only one around 1500 AD. At that time one usually is well advanced from Gunpowder, maybe short before Conscription (and Riflemen). So at 1500 AD you could switch from the units.gif and rules.txt containing Warriors, Phalanxes, Horsemen and Chariots to the .gif and .txt containing Cavalry, Tanks, Bombers, Rockets. The Medieval units like Knights, Musceteers, Cannon and Crusaders should be in both sets.
Andz83, you didn't hear from me because I'm too lazy to go for a decent provider. I'm still paying 5,-Pf (~3Cts.) per minute! So I read some Forum, look at the clock, and hurrily cut the line.
St. Leo, how do you end the game without Rocketry? And please don't tell me that modern wars are gruesome and industrial killing (that's right, though). Do you know the old joke, who was the first mass murderer in history? It was Kain, he killed one fourth of whole humankind. :/
Andrew Livings, what I suggested was more like
1 (old) - 2 (old) - 3 - 4 <-Set1
next
3 - 4 - 1 (new) - 2 (new) <-Set2
I agree, though, this could be done with a higher number of different sets. But who *really* needs 120-150 units?
Fast Eddie, yes, very good. Your approach is much more safe than mine. I can easily see this working with a standard Civ2 game. And I can see you're having problems in the Cold War scenario, when all the units are close together with their (ADM) values. In standard, there is quite a difference between Phalanx and Alpine Troops.
Well, thanks for the feedback, and thanks for considering.
Bye, Dirk
"Dirks and Daggers."

[Fast_Eddie]

well...you have to have three sets of files to allow for the early units to be made obsolete and then disbanded, so that you can get the slots back again for the third set of files.

And for the Cold War...the tough part was to make it so all the units line up as a I wanted them to, and so that a unit like the T-54/55 could be in service/used until the 60s (I know they are still in use...but the T-90 had to come in somewhere ).

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[Michael Daumen]

Hey, if we can think of a way to make it work, that's great. I don't mind disbanding phalanxes to make way for better units, but will the computer know to do it?

Here are some suggestions I have:
1. Give human player Leo's workshop. That will prevent cheaters from NOT disbanding old units for free upgrades.
2. Make a list of the new units you want to include. Then make a list of units you almost never use. Use slots from the latter (like carriers, since the computer doesn't use them) before using multiple files.
3. In the middle unit file make generic units that represent old units from the previous file. Like after you discover Gunpowder make a "footmen" unit for all others on the board before Musketeers.
4. Figure out if what Nemo said is true about the computer AI disbanding obsolete units. He says that he took advantage of this in Red Front.

[Fast_Eddie]

Not the generic units again!

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[St Leo]

Do you know the old joke, who was the first mass murderer in history? It was Kain, he killed one fourth of whole humankind.

Have I mentioned I am an atheist?

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