Polish 1939 army in Civ 2 graphics - mistakes.

[KASHANKA]

Axis German forces: 10,000+ losses
Allied Polish forces: 250,000+ losses.
Tragic but true.

Actually... a tragic mistake.
Here are the losses for both sides.

Polish losses: 70 000 KIA (7 000 of those were killed by Soviets)
German losses: 16 000 KIA, 5 000 MIA.
Soviet losses: 3 000 KIA

Those are the facts, checked in several reliable sources.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by KASHANKA


Actually... a tragic mistake.
Here are the losses for both sides.

Polish losses: 70 000 KIA (7 000 of those were killed by Soviets)
German losses: 16 000 KIA, 5 000 MIA.
Soviet losses: 3 000 KIA

Those are the facts, checked in several reliable sources.

The mistake is yours, that you be sure of.

I am listing casualties such as wounded and MIA, not just total kills on the Polish side.

Also your German figures seem a trifle off the mark.

Germany:
Try someing like 8029 killed, 27279 wounded, and 5029 missing.

Poland:
Here is my figure, broken down: 66300 killed, 133700 wounded and 420000 taken prisoner.

This far outranks my original figure.

My figures are taken from Allied sources, published in 1939 and listed
in a respected historical book on the SS and WW2 by Christopher Ailsby.

Care to challenge military Journals and history?
Perhaps the Polish Government has made it's own version.
But this is the generally accepted version of the tragic Polish losses for 1939.

[KASHANKA]

I won't argue on the Polish losses, as data are not very detailed. Moreover our information seem to be more or less the same in the KIA part.

As for the Gemans...
Here are my sources:
- B.Kroener "Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg"
- H.Vormann "Fall Weiss"
- T. Jurga "Kampania Wrzeœmiowa 1939"
- R. Zielinski "Wrzesieñ 1939"

All indicate that Germans lost 16 343 KIA, 27 640 (Zielinski points to 27 384) wounded and 5058 MIA(Zielinski points to 5452) .

Those are my sources and as you see I'm using modern Polish and German books.

[Case]

As I understand it, there's a great deal of uncertainty over what Germany's actual casualties really were - many historians think that the Germans covered up their true casualties. As the Poles were 'sub-humans' in the eyes of the Nazis, the Germans could hardly admit to taking substancial casualties from such 'inferior' beings. Low figures such as 8,000 fatalities are almost certainly too low for what was an 8 week campaign against a large, if poorly equiped, army.

What we do know for certain is that German equipment losses were quite substaincial - litterally hundreds of Pz I and Pz II tanks that crossed into Poland disappeared from the Wehrmacht's inventory, and the Luftwaffe's aircraft losses numbered in the hundreds. Again, the actual scope of equipment losses were much higher then what the Nazis ever offically admitted, and had to be pieced together after the war from examining equipment returns.

All in all, the Polish campaign wasn't quite the cake-walk for the Germans it's often thought of as being.

BTW, didn't hundreds of thousands of Polish troops cross into Romania?

[curtsibling]

War is never a cake walk, bu an stretch.

The bliztkrieg war was a revolutuion in combat, but still casualties were terrible.

As Manstein said, war is never a case of ease and swift resolution.

If you read of the USSR/Axis casualties from Operation Barbarossa in Jun to Dec 1941, it indicates what a nightmare war was in this era.

I guess it just adds up to the fact that WW2 was a tragedy for all.

A shame we have learned so little from it.

[KASHANKA]

BTW, didn't hundreds of thousands of Polish troops cross into Romania?

Yes, as well to Hungary and the Baltic states.
Poland was attacked from all sides: North from East Prussia, West form Germany, South from former Czechoslovakia, East from the Soviet union.
The short borders with Lithuania, Latvia, Hungary and Romania were the last chance for the soldiers afther the Soviet army invaded.

[curtsibling]

So what is the upshot of this thread?

KASHANKA, Care to summarise your advice to anyone using the Polish insignia on units from 1939-45?

[Case]

Originally posted by curtsibling
If you read of the USSR/Axis casualties from Operation Barbarossa in Jun to Dec 1941, it indicates what a nightmare war was in this era.

Good point Curt. Again, while the early parts of Barbarossa are usually considered to have been a cake-walk for the Germans, their casualties for this period actually numbered in the hundreds of thousands. Which is certainly a poke in the eye for those folks who enjoy constructing complex scenarios which would have 'gaurenteed' a sucessful invasion of the USSR in 1941.

[KASHANKA]

Originally posted by curtsibling
So what is the upshot of this thread?

KASHANKA, Care to summarise your advice to anyone using the Polish insignia on units from 1939-45?

OK:
1) Use the checked white and red symbol ONLY for the Airforce.

2) The Red and white banner with the eagle in the top should be used ONLY for the Polish navy.

3) For the land army its the best to use a normal Polish National flag such as this:
Or a white eagle on the red background (such as Cpt. Nemo used in his scenarios).

[Jonash]

Originally posted by KASHANKA

No... stopping the Germans wouldn't be that difficult.
Stopping the Germans AND the Soviets - now that's when you need a miracle.

Oh come on. This is pure nationalism.

[Cyrion]

Re: Polish 1939 army in Civ 2 graphics'n stuff.

Originally posted by KASHANKA
If someone does a good icon of polish infantry, TK-3 and 7 TP tank graphics I promise to make a Poland 1939 scenario

As Arthedain provided the polish infantry unit, I realized that only 2 tanks are needed if we want to get a Poland 39 scenario!

Come on tank geeks, do your magic!

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by Case


Good point Curt. Again, while the early parts of Barbarossa are usually considered to have been a cake-walk for the Germans, their casualties for this period actually numbered in the hundreds of thousands.

400.000 IIRC for which only 150.000 replacements were available.

As for the German casualities i think that the official Wehrmacht records are generally very reliable-as all things German.
I am not talking about casualities admited here but casualities registered.

And in any case 20.000-30.000 looses(KIAs, WIAs, MIAs) are only logical when fighting an 1.000.000 strong Polish army.