Goodie, Goodie...

[Dinner]

LotM: We seem to have a difference of opinion because you are looking for a historical simulator while I would like to be able to effect things. For instance we all know there are huge amounts of resources in Manuchuria, Latin America, Africa, etc and even if they weren't being exploited in 1940 I would like to have the option of spending the money and man power to industrialize the area or at least to build extractive industries. Right now the game just says sorry there are no resources any where but in the USSR or the US so what's the point of playing anyone else? No matter what you do you can't improve your situation meaningfully and that isn't very realistic or very fun. If I make different decisions from historical leaders I should be able to create different outcomes.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by JCG
True enough, but then again HoI 2 starts out a couple of significant notches above the rest to begin with (even with an AI in need of tweaking and other balancing concerns, the game's in better shape overall, doesn't crash as much, and is apparently considered as more playable than not, right now).

It really is sad that this is considered a victory. I am glade Paradox patches their products but if peole would be smart enough not to buy **** games which were rushed to market then companies like Paradox would stop releasing buggy, unstable, and unbalanced betas as finished products.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oerdin

LotM: We seem to have a difference of opinion because you are looking for a historical simulator while I would like to be able to effect things.

No, I wouldnt want to simulate only what actually happened. I would want to be able to simulate what realistically COULD have been changed. EG Italy could have stayed out of the war against Britain, and held on to Ethiopia, Libya, Albania, and maybe take Yugoslavia. That would be a HUGE difference. Or Japan could pass up on conquering China, and join the allies, and end up keeping Taiwan, Korea, etc and maybe getting some goodies at the end. Also a huge change. Or Germany doesnt attack Poland, but tries to join an anti-Soviet alliance with Britain instead.

Whats NOT possible is an axis "victory" with anything even close to the same lineup of participants.

For instance we all know there are huge amounts of resources in Manuchuria,

manchuria, I agree]

Latin America, Africa, etc and even if they weren't being exploited in 1940 I would like to have the option of spending the money and man power to industrialize the area or at least to build extractive industries.

Its a huge stretch to get Axis control of latin america, or of the parts of africa with abundant minerals (from katanga south, essentially) In any case building industry up is going to take quite some time - when does the game big and end? Isnt it 1936 to 1950? The minerals of southern africa were already known and exploited then, just out of axis reach. Oil in Libya is an interesting question though = if it were discovered in 1936, could it have been exploited in time to matter? thats a what if that one might like to pursue.

Right now the game just says sorry there are no resources any where but in the USSR or the US so what's the point of playing anyone else? No matter what you do you can't improve your situation meaningfully

What is "meaningful" In OTL (our time line - actual history) Germany from 1936 to Jam 1939 took austria and the sudetendland, and established a dominant diplomatic position in Hungary and Slovakia. Not to mention remilitarizing the rhineland and dropping the limits on German armament. Stop there, play nice, and consolidate, and youve managed a huge improvement in Germanys position.

But going for world conquest isnt particularly realistic.

and that isn't very realistic or very fun.

I hear you, but i have to defer judgement till ive played the game.

If I make different decisions from historical leaders I should be able to create different outcomes.

I agree.

[SirOsis]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Or Japan could pass up on conquering China, and join the allies, and end up keeping Taiwan, Korea, etc and maybe getting some goodies at the end. Also a huge change. Or Germany doesnt attack Poland, but tries to join an anti-Soviet alliance with Britain instead.

I'm playing as Nationalist China and I prevented Japan from invading by crushing the Communists (tough bastards) and then moving some forces to the northern border of Shanxi. Since I have military access in Shanxi my show of force detered the Japanese from attacking. I've also annexed Yunnan and Something Clique (can't remember the name). I am about to launch an attack on my friends the Shanxi as I'd like more territory. Tibet will be next when I get my mountaineer troops together. Should annex Tibet around mid-1940.

Right now it's April 1939. The plains have thawed and I'm getting ready to roll. I hope Japan gets drawn into a war as I'm eyeing Siam and they guarantee their independence. I'm trying to improve my relations with Japan so maybe they'll turn a blind eye when I grab Siam. My economy is pretty good now a little tough going in the beginning with energy shortages. I have built 3 divisions of tanks to roll through the plains but due to limited oil supplies I'll be sticking to infantry mostly. No shortage of manpower here.

[Dinner]

LotM, my point is historically there were large amounts of resource in Asia, Africa, and Latin America however for game balance reasons Paradox has choosen to remove or majorly tone down all of those resources. Indonesia was the world's second largest source of oil (thus Japanese interest) yet has virtually none in the game. There is little energy (representing coal) or iron much less industry in Manchuria. There isn't jack cheese in all of Africa. Latin America is a bet better but still toned down and I don't find it to unrealistic that borderline facist countries like Argentina or Brazil might decid to side with the Axis if the Allies start to lose really bad; at a bare minimum the axis might be able to keep them neutral and thus trading with the axis but right now Latin America has nothing to trade. In real life Chile, Argentina, Brazil, and Peru all had massive metal deposits which they did exploit and trade plus Venezula had more oil then the game is showing.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by SirOsis
Right now it's April 1939. The plains have thawed and I'm getting ready to roll. I hope Japan gets drawn into a war as I'm eyeing Siam and they guarantee their independence. I'm trying to improve my relations with Japan so maybe they'll turn a blind eye when I grab Siam. My economy is pretty good now a little tough going in the beginning with energy shortages. I have built 3 divisions of tanks to roll through the plains but due to limited oil supplies I'll be sticking to infantry mostly. No shortage of manpower here.

Yeah, I found the Japanese invasion to be laughably weak and the AI to just not be up to the job of fighting a human. I also first crushed the communists then moved everything to Shanxi where I invaded Manchuria the second the Japanese declared war. The result was I encircled most of the Japanese Army cutting them off in Northern Manchuria were they just fell apart and I annexed Manchuko. After that the Chinese minors fall like dominos.

Of course even after you reunit china and defeat the Japanese, all by 1940, there still isn't any raw materals in China. Almost no energy or iron and no oil. In real life China is swimming in the first two and has at least some oil in Manchuria (the main reason Japan invaded that place).