Lorraine Cooperative Game Thread

[Velociryx]

Europe in general....

[Velociryx]

Taxation and production information of our holdings....

[Velociryx]

Additional information on our holdings

[Velociryx]

Ranked as the 26th largest economy....

[Velociryx]

and finally, a look at the top economies in the world, to see where we stand relative to them....

EDIT: Dangit! China and the Incas didn't show....China's the top dog with 54.73, followed by the Inca Empire at 45.79....

[Velociryx]

And so....it begins, but where to go next? How to best take Lorraine, a rising star in Europe, and guide her to further greatness?

Burgundy is down but not out (I tried to make a peace which included Holland, but they just would not go for it, and besides, we REALLY needed money to get TC's promoted in the lands we acquired and put them on a paying basis), and England has been, by and large, kicked off of mainland Europe but is understandably none-too-fond of us.

On the other hand, we made quite a good impression on France with our performance in this war, and have expanded our economy in six short years from next to nothing, to being in the top 30 in the world.

Problems on the horizon for us:

1) Unless we want to REALLY be a badboy, our only real chances for future expansion must come at France's expense--otherwise, we expand into German territory and are forced to do a LOT of annexing, which will turn world opinion (largely neutral at this time) against us, and see us having to fight LOTS of nasty wars). On the other hand, France is the best friend we've got, but we know...we all know, that France is tomorrow's monster....right now, we have a leader with good diplomatic skills, and can probably (not this year, as we have only 5d in the treasury), get ourselves into a good alliance and go paste some Frenchies before they get strong...as it stands, we're on par with them, territory-wise, but they simply have more opportunities to grow, and will soon outpace us.

2) Naval presence, or not at this time?

3) Research objectives? Right now, we're steaming ahead for Inf 3

4) Disposition of our forces?

And hosts of other stuff I prolly haven't even thought of.

Nonetheless, I bring you this bright beginning, in the hopes that we, collectively, can raise Lorraine to undreamed of heights!

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Relations with our alliance members and direct neighbors (those we share a border with)

Burgundy: -200
Geldre: +31
Munster: +72 (RM)
Kleves: +72 (RM)
Cologne: +72 (RM)
Lux: +36
Brabant: +18 (Vassal of Burgundy)
Pfalz: +72 (RM)
Baden: (-61) (recently acquired Alsace, expect relations to drop steadily....Vassal of Austria)
Helvetia: (+44)
Savoy: +40
France: (+139) (RM and Mil access)
Orleanais: +19
England: -140
Burbonais: +19
Auvergne (no border, but allied) +23
Provence (no border, but allied) +24

-=Vel=-

[ravagon]

Bloody hell.

From one province to eight in a single war? A new CoT included? Relatively light losses? Buckets of cash?

Or to put it another way ... bloody hell.


Hmmm. So once again you've nicked French and Burgundian home provinces?
I'm beginning to see a pattern.

[Velociryx]

Indeed....I sooooo enjoy playing in this little patch of Europe! Such devastating danger, such impressive firepower that our enemies can bring to bear...I simply LOVE it!

And yes, that's a bit of a downer as well....with some of our holdings bearing French CB shields (including our capitol province), we can expect relations with France to diminish over time....possibly another reason to seek strong alliance partners elsewhere and bust some French chops while they are relatively weak....but, dare we do that with England and Burgundy angry with us?

An interesting quandry, and into whose arms would we flee? Aragon is a natural choice, given their border with France....but an English Gambit (repairing relations with England and Burgundy and joining them) might have some interesting implications as well....

Or, we could ride it out with France and see what happens.

Endless possibilities....thoughts on the matter, good sir?

-=Vel=-

[ravagon]

Quandary indeed.

Ummm .... I guess the obvious next move is against Burgundy again in another 5 years.
England, while they won't like you, won't have a CB on those French provinces you've just taken I presume?
Ergo once Burgundy is out of the way (or once their alliance is broken) relations can begin a-mending.

I don't have too much experience with playing with a high BB rating. How quickly does the BB rating decline over time? Can you annex a few countries with no other effect and leave it to decline naturally, or does even a tarnished reputation hurt you immediately?

Another obvious move would be to the north to try and link up your home province with the low countries.
This though could prevent France from heading east and swallowing up many of those one-province minors (thereby taking most of the BB hits for you).
More importantly, any future conflicts between France-Austria (ie: conflicts which swallow up one-province minor allies like hotcakes) could well be fought on your territory (assuming you're allied to either one) which might not turn out so well.

How about looking to the south-east? Savoy and a Med port or two?
Also the French minors are ripe pickings. If they begin reneging on their obligations and you're the one to annex then you'll both increase your own holdings and reduce French aspirations in the future.
If France manages to link her Northern and Southern territories and remove the English continental presence entirely you may be faced with a runaway juggernaught.

Choices upon choices upon choices ...

[Velociryx]

I was thinking Burgundy too, but with her power shattered, she's only good for one more province....still, a quick war to force vassalage upon her in five years' time might not be a bad thing....and, she's still got some juicy events which allow her to absorb some of her neighbors (taking the BB hits for us, and then we can repair relations and annex) (IIRC, Brabant and Lux both stand good chances of getting added to Burgundy's fold....tho now that Burgundy has no common land border with either, I'm not sure if that's a go....?

BB....on impossible level, it's 1 point per 8 years....a bit more lenient on hard, but I'm not sure by how much....in any case, so long as we're not the highest bb in the land, and so long as we don't cross that threshold, we should be okay (which means we should keep an eye out for folks like the Austrians and Ottos and wait till one of them goes on a bit of an annexing spree, which will draw attention away from us and our BB...

As to uniting our holdings....in looking at the map, a strike against France yielding us a minimum of Champagne and Picardie would go a long ways toward meeting that goal. If we also acquired Nivernais or Lyonnais, I'd not mind AT ALL giving up Poitou to one of the French Sattellites in a separate peace....that would simply matters of our own defense, and consolidate all our holdings via land connection (plus we pick up a grain province....extra 1k troops by itself, plus the economic and manpower impact).

Another possibility....while we're still allied to France, we could do a quick strike against Baden and pick up Alsace....the one province we have territorial claims against....no nationalism when we conquer it, nice MP boost....the only drawback there is French leadership...there's no guarantee that WE'd be the ones to grab Alsace, even if we arrived there first to begin the siege....France has so many doggone leaders that they might just take the siege from us.... (which, btw, is another reason to get away from the alliance....we need an ally who won't be robbing sieges out from under us, but who can still help us materially against our enemies....

-=Vel=-

[pg]

nice going!

i'd definately go after burgundy, and england again asap to take holland, gascogne, and normandie. it shouldn't be too hard, but your biggest problem will probably be making sure your allies don't take any of the spoils. maybe you are even strong enough to do it without calling your allies. if you do call your allies i'd try to make peace first with burgundy to take holland and hope someone afterwards will annex her allowing you opportunities later on. somewhere around here i'd also try for a rm(and gifts if need be) with aragon or castile to improve your relations for later.

a few years after that your manpower should be boosted from a drop of 3% to 2% revolt risk in first war acquired provinces so that taking on france should be within reach. hopefully you can get into castile's, or aragon's alliance for some assistance. preferably you should try to gain provinces so your empire should be linked up better. i'd say taking picardie and champange is a definite must along with either vendee, and maine or guyenne, lyonnais, and languedoc.

i noticed your trade level is fairly high so perhaps it might be good idea to put some traders into the kurland cot to boost your manpower from grain trading?

since baden is vasallized by austria there is a good chance austria will annex them later so you shouldn't rush to take alsace as you can use that for free cbs in future wars vs the habsburgs.

[Velociryx]

Excellent thoughts, PG!

I like the idea of leaving Alsace open so we get a freebie CB on whomever has control of it, but how 'bout this:

Since our BEST short, to mid-term growth possibilities are going to come at the expense of France (ie - taking Holland from Burgundy should be no sweat at this point, but it's off culture, and eventually will be off-religion, so it won't be "worth" as much to us as French or Germanic provinces (I LOVE Lorraine's French/German culture!)....soooo....we could use our CB to DoW Austria, call our allies and LET France take Alsace for us....that gives us a CB vs. France for when we switch alliance families and start busting them....it also could go a long ways toward stirring the pot and getting the Austrians to hate France, meanwhile our Duke, skilled in the ways of Diplomacy, could repair our own rift with the Austrians fairly easily.

It would take an enormous amount of coin to repair relations with England at this point, and in truth, I'm not sure if it's worth it (I had considered possibliy kissin' and makin' up with England/Burg and joining THEM against France, but....that's a very expensive proposition which would prolly take YEARS to accomplish.

Since the English provs currently under French control are not the more valuable French provs, that puts us back in the boat of eyeing France for future expansion....unless one of the German minors (or Austria) goes on a munching spree in the HRE and we can let them eat the cb hit for all the annexation.

For the time being though, it still looks like--aside from popping Burgundy again in the not-so-distant future, our best hope for big gains will be at French expense....if it pleases those following the game, I'll play us out to the year end today and see how much operating cash we have at the start of 1427....give us a better indication of what our options are....with all of 5d in the treasury right now, all we really CAN do (aside from RM's), is stand pat.

Good thoughts too, re: trade, and to that end, perhaps our next slider adjustment ought to be Aristoc -1? (that still gives us a production boost, but also inches that trade effie higher, and since we DO have a significantly better trade effie than production at this time, it might be a good idea to start makin' good use of it (can also start plying our merchants into Flandern, esp. now that we own it!

Keep the thoughts coming, cos I don't wanna play beyond year-end to get some money for us to work with without coming to a consensus here!

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

But to that end, since we have 4 Diplomats available, how should I use them between now and the end of the year? RM's to Castile, Aragon, and Portugal, with one held in reserve? Other candidates that share borders with us?

EDIT: pg makes another excellent point...10-years from now, when the nationalism in our newly acquired holdings drops from 3% to 2% revolt risk, we'll see a spiking of manpower....might be a good idea to make our preparations now (over the next ten years) with a plan to bust whomever's chops right after we see our nationalism drop....of course, we could still maul Burgundy between now and then, but for a....shall we say....larger target, that extra manpower and extra max army size will, no doubt, be extremely helpful, and we can carefully grow our war chest between now and then so we'll have plenty of funds for the war....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Other considerations:

I do not believe that we, as a nation, can afford to be passive. Having suddenly shot up the growth chart (starting econ of 1.0 per month, now more than 12 per month....a 1200-odd percent increase in six years!)....having angered some of the more prominent nations near us (Burgundy--not much of a threat any longer--and England (major potential threat), and at least discussing the possibility of choking the life out of France while she's still in her infancy....if we sit back and remain passive, I believe that we will relegate ourselves to a marginalized position on the world stage.

Right now, the only reason we have ANY chance to keep our holdings is the fact that we have military access through France.....they get uppity and take that away from us, and we're in a bind, BIG TIME (especially with no fleet and and low naval tech...even if we HAD a fleet, we'd take attrition damage trying to reinforce Poitou by sea if we lose access to French ports)....but Poitou aside, the heart and soul of our holdings are not land-connected to Lorraine....what's making our economy hum at this point are our territories in and around the Low Countries....we lose reliable access to those, and we might as well still be a one-province minor.

So....having said that, I feel that it is in our own national self interest to maintain a highly aggressive stance with the first, overriding priority being to unify our holdings so that we no longer have to rely on anyone's good graces to travel from one end of our Kingdom to the other.

In terms of making additional landgrabs, that means a strike at Lux (major bb hit and world opinion takes a nosedive if we annex), or an aggressive hit against France while we're still on par with them technologically (right now, all our efforts are being poured into improving infrastructure--with the goal being infra 5 and inflation-busting mayors--but you can bet that France is putting all their efforts into guns and not butter. We wait too long to hit them, and we'll find ourselves facing an increasingly stronger France, with a smaller army and inferior weapons....no matter who our allies are, that's an uphill fight.

In the end though, the game will be won or lost in the economic arena, and I believe that a strong economic focus while making use of our armies while everybody is nicely low-tech is the right combination to get us into a position of dominance.

And speaking of a strike against France, it goes without saying that we ought to wait until they're embroiled in a war elsewhere, and give their armies plenty of time to move well away from the northern French territories (which should be our first targets, if we opt to move against them....isolating Paris and connecting Lorraine with our most valuable holdings), then hit them with everything we have, and in the company of strong, hungry allies....

OoO

Lorraine: Goals and objectives for the immediate future (the remainder of 1426 – January 1429)

Diplomacy
• Secure RM’s with the nations of the Iberian peninsula (RM’s to Castile, Aragon, and Portugal)

• Continue to bolster relations with those nations we share a direct border with, and whom we have no territorial ambitions against at this time (RM’s to: Savoy, Geldre, Lux, and Helvetia) (can’t RM Brabant or Baden, nor any of the French vassals....perhaps a letter to the Duke of Brabant?)

• Any efforts toward Austria at this time? Any additional efforts toward the Iberians (letters after the RM?)


Military
• Force review (currently we have ~10k in the Low Countries—posted to Artois—and ~5k in Poitou…nothing to guard Lorraine or Comte)…this is…certainly not ideal, but the low countries is where we can expect to see the greatest number of revolts, and Poitou is so far away that I thought it best to station a permanent garrison there….if Comte rebels, we can march troops through France from the north….again, hardly ideal, but given the scant size of our max. military at present, I was uncertain what else to do….is this an acceptable disposition of our forces, or does it need closer review?

• We have ports now (which means no penalty for naval tech research), but no navy….the question is…do we really need one right now? If yes, then perhaps we could focus on galleys in the immediacy….that would give us a “presence” without being overly taxing on our budget. If the Council determines that we do need one (a fleet)….what size and carriage capacity are we shooting for? What will we be attempting to do with it? (what would its primary mission be, at this point)


National Development
• Right now, all our efforts are being poured into improving our national infrastructure. Any other recommendations, or should we stay steady on that course?

• What CoT’s should we be focusing our mercantile efforts on?

• We have an upcoming government (slider) adjustment….thoughts on what we should change with it?

• Should we work on building up a national warchest, or spend it while we got it? If it’s the former, what level should we shoot for to maintain in our treasury in case of national emergency?


These are the questions we’ll need to come up with solid answers to, and to that end, when I return home this evening (after I update the Scotland thread!), I shall play through to the end of the year (Jan, 1427) and see what we’ve got, coin wise, and will also post our unit costs at that time!

-=Vel=-