Wow. Newbie lost.

[Akka]

I've heard countless praises about EU2 for years, particularly on these boards. So, after tasting the pleasures of RTW for weeks, to the point I feel I've explored most of the game, I thought about another good strategy game, and remembered all these praises.

So, well, got EU2, and tried it. So far, I'm extremely split on this.

On one hand, there is just SO MANY excellent ideas, I can't understand why they weren't copied elsewhere. The peace treaty treatment, the core regions concept, the fact that you can't annex territory during the war, the attrition, the cost of war, the importance of diplomacy, the realistic-like pace of the game...

But on the other hand... Oh my... It's ugly, and doesn't help the immersion. And then, what is this ATROCIOUS interface ? 0_o
It's absolutely not intuitive, confusing, not customizable nor scalable, and, really not intuitive again. It's a pain to try to do anything with this. A horrible pain.
And, lastly, there is an horrible lack of information, or perhaps that there is information, but that it's made all confusing due to the interface. There is plenty of things that I don't get, and plenty of time something happens and I don't know why.

For example, I started to play with Byzantium, and then the Ottomans attack me (not surprising). I've battles with them, and sometimes a battle is easily won by my army, and the next time, the exact same battle is lost badly.
Other times, I have a much bigger army, with much more cavalry, I'm on the defensive, the indicator shows that the enemy has a worse defense/attack than me, and yet, my morale drops much faster, and I sustain more casualities, and I lose.
It's feeling totally random. Or it's perhaps that there is plenty of factors, but they aren't clearly displayed. Or anything. But the point is, I don't understand why I win, or I lose, or why this, or why that.

The information feedback is horrible. I had to go bankrupt to actually know that I was taking loans (as they are automatics, and you aren't warned). I mean, I understand this game is deep and complex, and that I won't all get right from the start, but truly, the lack of information and the horror of the interface are such than I already gave up several times just out of irritation.
Each time I come back, because I think "damn, it would be so cool to do that, and this, and that", but each time, I quit soon, because I'm stuffed with things happening out of the blue, and the exhausting fight against the UI.


So, as I suppose there is plenty of vets here, what are the first basic points that aren't obvious, but are important, to which I should pay attention, and the more-or-less hidden factors that make the game seems so random and irritating at times ?

[pg]

If it makes you feel any better I didn't like EU2 much at first either but I liked it enough to keep playing it. It took me at least 5 games to get a good feel for EU2. Just stick too it. You can find most information in the ledger(red book).

[Dinner]

You can adjust most of the message settings in the options menu during play. If you want you can even set it up so the game pauses when a loan is about to be taken out. I'll admite the interface does have a learning curve but if you give it a chance then you figure it out and the game ends up growing on you.

Once you learn the ins and outs of the game it turns out to be a much deeper and more logical game then most strategy games on the market today. Go to www.europa-universalis.com to see dedicated forums for EU2 and to write in forums the games designers and programers continue to use plus you can pick up the latest beta patch or mod there.

[Akka]

Well, I'll try to hang on then. Thanks

But I admit that not being able to know WHY my superior army is being beaten, is something that tends to make even the very start of the game quite annoying.

[Dinner]

Cavalry will almost always beat infantry all things being equal. If things aren't equal then it usually means the other guy has a higher land combat level meaning his armies have a higher level of technology then yours. Another thing to look out for it terrain as mountains or swamps make things harder for the attacker. Lastly remember your slider settings as they can greatly affect your leaders' abilities and your army's morale.

Remember to use the tutorials as they will teach you what you need to know and go to www.europa-universalis.com as they have faqa which will explain the most interact detail to you. Just hang in there past the learning curve and you will likely find you really like the game.

[Micha]

Also, I strongly suggest to start learning games as either Austria (peaceful, diplomacy), Ottoman Empire (wargame, WATCH YOUR UPKEEP COSTS!!!) or Castile (Most easy one IMO, little of all plus exploring).

It will make things a lot easier, because you can concentrate on the important things without being buggered up by loans and the like.

About losing fights:
The Ottomans have many great generals in the early and middle game, while the Byzantines only get one after some decades.
Maybe that´s the point?

[Akka]

Well, I restarted once again, and this time it went better.
But still, the same irritating "what's the heck is affecting the battles ?" thing stroke again.

Some examples :

1) I'm attacking Bulgaria :



Ok, that's the start. I've got higher morale. I've more soldier, both in infantry and cavalry, than him. The picture shows that I'm having a 7-1 fighting rating while he's having only 2.

Still :



I'm losing. 0_o
How ? Why ?


2) Same situation in another province :






Losing. Doh ? 0_o
And then, I reload the game just before this battle. I do it again.
This time I win easily. Doh ? o_0


Well, after a lot of fighting, two bankrupcy, an extenuating war, I finally crush the Ottomans. Several years of peace happen, but I still want to retake Anatolia.

After a long time, my economy is stable, my troops regained their morale, and I've got a good general.
So I attack again.

And then, again...





Ok, I see that they have a "strong" morale, when I'm only "disciplined".

But well, I have an fighting rating of 9 plus 2 (ELEVEN total) while they have one of ZERO, I have more than twice their total numbers in cavalry alone, plus three times their total numbers in infantry. I'm attacking on plains, which make full use of cavalry.

And nevertheless, I'm losing 0_0


Can anyone make any sense with this ?

[Micha]

Hehe, I wouldn´t bother with those values displayed, I doubt they indicate anything.

Just two things: Your Stability is "1", meaning two grades worse than good. That hugeley affects fighting.
And it´s only 1427, I mean you didn´t pass a decade yet...
So darn early in the game you shouldn´t be expecting to beat the ottomans with byzantium. They have lots of great generals, which can kill any army you field against them. It usually takes five to seven attacks to kill a general.. (depending on difficulty).
Also the ottomans have a land rating of about 7 to 8, while the byzantines have one of around 4. That also affects battle outcomes.

At last, yes, there´s a random figure in each combat, as there is in almost any strategy game.

What version are you playing with? Did you get the latest patch?

[Akka]

I'm playing with the last patch, I think. It's 1.08 if I'm not mistaken.

Isn't the stability affecting directly the morale ?

What are these "land rating" ? Aren't they part of the "fighting rating" displayed in the corner of the battle box ?

As for the general, how can I check if the Ottoman army has a good general, or if it's only a regular captain ?

(and is it possible that all these factors CAN compensate for being outnumbered 5 to 1 by an army led by a competent general, with half of the soldier being cavalry on plain ? 0_o)

(I know, I'm asking plenty of questions ^^ It's just that I like to understand what's happening, and for now I'm feeling playing Voodoo, just doing things and wondering if it will work like I suppose it will, or if it will goes in a completely different direction due to plenty of hidden factors that aren't displayed and I haven't a clue about ^^)

[Dinner]

Raise stability also check the army funding by clicking the helmet icon to the left of your flag. Make sure you're funding your army 100%. Next begin adjusting your sliders towards land and quality to get better moral for your armies. Moving to Aristocratic nd centralization also helps.

[Dinner]

I'm currently trying to play Ethiopia in the grand campaign with limited success. I'm trying not to loan shark but also to prevent Oman from Colonizing the horn of Africa before I do. That isn't eay since my monthly income is only around 5 gold.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Akka
What are these "land rating" ? Aren't they part of the "fighting rating" displayed in the corner of the battle box ?

Since it's 1419 you'll both have a land warfare level of 1. You can go to the tax menu and see your rating by holding the arrow over the '?" next to the slider. That little ball on the slider lets you adjust your tax rate and decide which areas to research (land, navel, trade, infastructure, etc...).

[Akka]

Well, it's still the same thing against Karaman.
But this time, with a stability of +3. In Smyrna, when I'm still the one having the advantage of numbers in cavarly, and in Shock Rating.

I'm starting to REALLY be fed up to randomly lose and win. Is this all the game long, or is it just due to the initial settings ?

[Micha]

Originally posted by Akka
What are these "land rating" ? Aren't they part of the "fighting rating" displayed in the corner of the battle box ?

No, it´s part of your politics sliders. Click the coat of arms to get to the slider menue and look for "naval power vs. land power". It has the biggest effect on your fighting skills.

As for the general, how can I check if the Ottoman army has a good general, or if it's only a regular captain ?

Pause the game and hold the mouse cursor over the enemy´s army (only works if the army is alone, meaning not fighting or stacked). It will display the numbers and a name in brackets if the army has a general. If it doesn´t, it has a random leader.

(and is it possible that all these factors CAN compensate for being outnumbered 5 to 1 by an army led by a competent general, with half of the soldier being cavalry on plain ? 0_o)

Yes, Murad II. can win the strangest battles... Like I said before, an enemy leader can only be killed by attacking him over and over again with cavalry. You will lose every single battle, but if you´re lucky you´ll reduce his numbers enough to eventually kill him.

This becomes more important when playing either england or france, for their everlasting war is decided once all leaders of one side have been slain...

Heed my advise: Play Castile or Ottoman Empire for the start, to get the hang of things. Don´t start with countries that historically ceased to exist in that period

[Akka]

Nah, I just CANNOT let the old Byzantine Empire die. They don't deserve it. They have to live !

Anyway, I destroyed the Ottomans (serve them well :P), and I've conquered all Karaman but Tarsus. Quitted last time because 4000 rebels scum has been able to defeat my 10000 soldier (half cavalry) lead by my Emperor

But I'll check these slider with land/naval rating.

Again, too bad the interface is so atrocious, particularly when it comes to such informations, which aren't displayed and you have to know/guess. I just dream of such a game with the RTW graphics, battle, map and interface ^^ (and era, too bad they chose the most uninteresting piece of history :-/)