Lorraine Cooperative Game Thread

[Velociryx]

Never mind....Just ran a little experiment in my latest new game....a couple of things I dinnae know....first, if an alliance member does not honor his obligations to the alliance, only the leader gets a cb against that member, and second, DoW-ing someone's vassal carries with it a -100 relation penalty with the master state (ie - if we DOW the Bourbons, we'll lose 100 points of goodwill with France....so....declaring against the Bourbons would be an offensive war (more bb), and p*ss off France at a time when we NEED them on our side.

In short, we're better off not doing it.

However....as I observe our current game situation, it occurs to me that more and more, mending fences with England and Burgundy is the way to go....England has a strong army on the mainland (35k), allied to Geldre with 39k....that more than matches what France currently has, and we can arrange ourselves to get LOTS of provinces out of the deal....of course, it'll be expensive, but I would contend that the expense would be well worth it, especially if we can minimize English/Burgundian gains.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Proposal - Operation Machievelli

Goal
To break the power of France before they can become a juggernaught, and to protect ourselves from an attack by Burgundy. Eventually, we will engineer a war against France in which we hope to gain at a minimum, the provinces of Champagne, Picardie, Nivernais, and Orleanais--more if we can get them, but those are our initial targets in this upcoming war.

Execution
Step 1: RM with England to begin mending fences before the truce with them expires (done, december 1427)

Step 2: Letters to England to slowly warm relations with them

Step 3: Cancellation of Military access with France, and dropping out of the French alliance (this must be IMMEDIATELY (same day) followed by step 4

Step 4: Gain entrance into England's alliance and declare war against France, providing that France is currently engaged IN a war against someone else.

Disposition of the Military
Because we plan on focusing all our acquisitions in the northern part of France, before we make our declaration, we'll need to march the Poitou regiment north (before we cancel mil access) and place it in Lorraine, for strikes of opportunity against Champagne or Nivernais.

Other Notes
The key to the success of this operation is to wait until France is pre-occupied, and lightning strikes into all of the northern French provinces. This will probably require the taking of AT LEAST one loan, and possibly more, and will require full minting of coin. The one thing we don't want to do is to find ourselves badly in need of troops at a time when victory is in our grasp. Inflation problems can be resolved later, AFTER we hand France a defeat which utterly cripples them.

Timeframe
Soon as our level of nationalism hits 2% RR (increase in manpower for us)....sooner if an ideal opportunity presents itself.

To this end, I propose that we ply all efforts into two things between now and then:
1) Increasing relations with England (obviously the most important of the two), and
2) Improving our trade position in Flandres, and then moving on to Ile De France (if we can get an embargo in place by France for aggressive trading, then we won't incur as many BB points for our war)

-=Vel=-

[ragou]

I'd say that ally with England is the way to go. It seems like a mighty good plan to me. France is a lot more of a threat to us than the English are in the long term. Thus it is better to decimate them in the beginning, before they get really strong.

[Nikolai]

I agree with ragou. I would, however, try to warm the relation of other potential threats at our border, to not get involved in a two front war. This is of course only if we can afford it. I am a player that mostly like to play safe.

[Velociryx]

Hey guys, and g'morning! I'm glad you're leaning in this direction, cos I think it's got some interesting potential as a strategy....the main reason I'm so interested in this *particular course* is twofold:

First (and perhaps most important), is that there's only one nation in the neighborhood of France that has a bigger army....England, and second, since we REALLY peeved Burgundy, the best way to prevent an attack by them against us is to choke off all possibility that it will occur (jump in an alliance with them).

Burg's got some good hitting power though (well, not now, but they could easily enough), and if we can also warm relations with them--to say nothing of Geldre's 40k army!--I think we'll be well-positioned to knock the socks off the French!

But....I agree that before we launch a general offensive, we gotta do everything we can to shore up relations with everybody who could hit us while we're fighting France....specifically that means Baden/Austria, Brabant, and Brittany (who has CB shields on us and the whole of France).

So....if we play it this way, it's going to take some time, and it's going to take some coin....(we should get everybody at least neutral, and preferably slightly kindly disposed to us before we even set marching orders against France, and with a monarch who has a good diplomatic rating, we can really use our diplomats as "weapons" in this regard!

-=Vel=-

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Proposal - Operation Machievelli

I don't like the name of the plan quite frankly.
Machiavelli was far too open and honest IMO.

Umm ... Alliance members not having a CB on breakaway nations is a bit of a let down. I never realised this until now.
England/Burgundian force dispositions are probably going to be the most crucial aspects of the next war given that they'll have the largest proportion of hitting power ...
I wonder if it might be an idea to stay out until you can see how its going - then to join in where and when your own force may be most useful.
If you were to then, say, concentrate, half of your strength on Bourbonais (assuming they take part of course) to cut French forces off from their southern provinces you could disperse most of the remaining force to cover everything in the south, loot, and prevent any new armies from being drawn up.
This would assume, of course, that the bulk of French strength was operating against the English in the North.
Pull it off, and, grab a province in the peace treaty to permanently separate northern and southern territories and France will evermore be effectively fighting wars on two fronts which can be amazingly effective.

The big question for the future will be with regard to what Austria is doing in the meantime ...

[Edit: Hmmm ... How many diplomats do we have?
If, for example, you were to guarantee the independence of Burgundy, or warn France perhaps, it'd probably give you the CB you're looking for.]

[Velociryx]

Indeed, and if our plan works, first, humiliating England and Burgundy in the name of France, and then mending fences with them and turning ON France like the rabid dogs that we are....if that works, we shall make Machiavelli look like a rank ameture....setting the two greatest powers in Europe against each other and then collecting the lion's share of the spoils....I LOVE IT!

Good plan on the warning vs. France, tho if we are in the English alliance, that might not work--depends on how confident France is about tangling with England again.

As to the next play period....I think we're beginning to reach a consensus then....hold the line til we get our manpower spike (nationalism drops to 2%), and spend the truce-time making nice with England and Burgundy, with the goal to have positive relations with both by the time the truce expires.

Other goals will be to improve relations with all our neighbors (Baden and Brabant, particularly), as well as Brittany and Austria (two non-neighboring countries that will figure prominently into our long-term security--ie, two that we don't need to have backstabbing us when we are neck-deep in our struggle with France.

So....a period of serious diplomacy, making full use of our Duke's excellent diplomatic skill and using it as a "weapon" of sorts (or perhaps "shield" would be the more apt term). And in the meantime of course, play the role of dutiful son to France.

If that sounds good to all parties involved, I shall duly run us ahead some, with that basic plan in mind, only stopping if there's some compelling decision to be reached--though, in light of the above, until we are ready for our backstab, we shall dutifully support any French war we are called upon to support.

Good plan?

-=Vel=-

[Nikolai]

Yes.

[Velociryx]

Will try to get the next segment played through by tonight or tomorrow (gotta post an update to Scotland first tho!), but in the meantime....assuming we can slay the French Dragon, here are a couple of longer-term things we prolly need to start kicking around:

1) When the reformation happens, should we make the switch to Prot?--I'm assuming that by the time this occurs, we'll have eaten France and absorbed several German minors and prolly be working the Austrians over. Doing so would no doubt strain Iberian relations and make them a pain to maintain, but if England also switches, then we're well positioned for a strong late-game partner--and if not England, then the Swedes, mebe? Anyway, the Prot/NoProt question is a biggie, looming on the horizon.

2) I'd like to see us conquer ALL French and German provinces by game end...any other acquisitions we ought to be looking for?

3) Colonial aspirations in any particular part of the world?

4) Any long-range goals or objectives (ie "Conquer China")

-=Vel=-

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Velociryx
1) When the reformation happens, should we make the switch to Prot?--I'm assuming that by the time this occurs, we'll have eaten France and absorbed several German minors and prolly be working the Austrians over. Doing so would no doubt strain Iberian relations and make them a pain to maintain, but if England also switches, then we're well positioned for a strong late-game partner--and if not England, then the Swedes, mebe? Anyway, the Prot/NoProt question is a biggie, looming on the horizon.

I'd say no. We have German culture and can easily convert them. Also:

2) I'd like to see us conquer ALL French and German provinces by game end...any other acquisitions we ought to be looking for?

3) Colonial aspirations in any particular part of the world?

I'd recommend to conquer Italy(rich and populus), and then it'd be a pain to convert them to protestantism. We will have many catholic provinces too. I also think it could be wise(if it's possible to do without too much cost) to take some of Iberia, to cripple a potential enemy. This isn't the most important though.

I also think we should colonize North and possibly Middle America. Lots of tribes to take on, and rich provinces. And not to be forgotten: Lots of same culture provinces after the conversions!

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Velociryx
4) Any long-range goals or objectives (ie "Conquer China")

I don't think that will be neccessary. It's better to let things come as they come. And China is a bit WC'ish isn't it? (And note, I don't like WC's. Other than the Ebbesen ones!)

[Velociryx]

Hmmm...it'd be a cultural nightmare, but we could re-create the Roman Empire.....make the Med our own private lake? *G*

-=Vel=-

[ravagon]

... Hmm ... Something ate my post.

How odd - given that my posts generally don't contain enough substance to satisfy a gnat for more than a few picoseconds ...

Anyway ...

England, in my rather limited experience, generally goes protestant/reformed once more than half of her provinces have changed (which usually seems to happen within a decade or two of the reformation).
France generally stays catholic although a few of her southern provinces often convert.
I have no idea about the German minors.

Ergo if you want to stay Catholic your relations with Spain/Portugal will be better but you'll suffer more hits if you want to target Austria or Spanish/Portugese holdings in the new world ...

I'd take a wait and see attitude I think, although you'll need to prepare for England breaking away initially ...

[Velociryx]

Sounds prudent to me....and we should prolly adopt that same stance....when the reformation hits, if more than half our provs go over to the Prot side, then we should too....and perhaps even with a slimmer margin than that (prots get more merchants, IIRC, more colonists, and a kick to the economy, so there are some compelling reasons to think about it). OTOH, the ability to snag Spanish and Portuguese territory in the new world and have them be same religion....that's pretty huge too)!

-=Vel=-

[Nikolai]

A thing to remember, is that if we stay catholic, we can become counter-reformed. Then we can take all the northern German states(quite a few) without any stab hits.

As for a "cultural nightmare", I disagree. We'll have at least French, German, Italian, and possibly Iberian and Swiss culture. We might get celtic(or whatever the name is) culture in Britanny if not the French get their events fired before we take them. That is affordable regarding stab cost. As an example, I can take my own ongoing game as the Papal States. when I had Italy, France, half of Iberia and the Netherlands, I had less than half a year to get a new stab point. I first got some more recovering time after I got German provinces with/without Protestant religion. Now I have those and some Scandinavian provinces, three religions and still I have a stab recovery time under one year IIRC. And as I convert more and more Protestants... BTW, do remember that the Papal States have only one state culture, while we have two!