RPG - What Combinations of Adversaries are Tougher than their Parts?

[MattyBoy]

Have you ever noticed how some monsters in RPG's are not that tough, but they combine to be much tougher? Interested to hear if you have any examples.
Here's one that I just noticed in the new Nethack release.
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I noticed in a couple of cases I encountered pyrolisks (fiery ranged gaze burns scrolls, explodes potions) and Trolls (Come back to life even while you're eating them) together.

This is a surprisingly tough combination. My counter for pyrolisks is to drop all scrolls and potions (I have no bag to stash them in yet) and don't move from my square. My counter for Trolls is to hang onto my stuff and eat them if I don't want them around.

When I encounter both at once, I cannot chase down the pyrolisk and leave the Troll uneaten or the Troll gets my potions and scrolls and wastes them against me. I am loathe to step away from the potions to eat the troll, else when "bite covered troll rises from the dead", it might get them from the place where I left them. Best compromise seems to be to drop all potions and scrolls and stand still, killing the Troll each time it rises and waiting for the pyrolisk to come to you. Bad thing about this is that I hate being forced to stand still if I'm already fleeing something else.

Worse still, last time I was fighting a water troll, I put on levitation boots to chase it down over water. While putting boots on, the pyrolisk appeared and wrecked several treasured scrolls and potions. Then I stupidly dropped my potions and scrolls (including 10 holy waters). I was blindfolded (so I could telepathically see eels in the surrounding water), so I didn't notice until later that all of my potions had smashed on the ground.

[Urban Ranger]

These are not really RPG's in the sense that you don't really play a role. In fact, people do all kinds of calculations to maximise their chances of "winning." Winning does not exist in RPG's and calculations are greatly frowned upon.

For real RPG's, for example, Champions, working as a well coordinated group always beats being a loose team of individuals.

[Dis]

I really can't think of any examples in real RPG's

but in diablo 2 having lightening enhanced (the ones that emit chain lightening when hit) physical immunity and extra strong aren't fun.

[loinburger]

Demi-Lich plus Death Knights is a pretty tough combination (since the Death Knights are excellent tanks and the Demi-Lich can buff everybody against Turning or Dispelling or Sunlight or any other Undeath weaknesses), but then again, Demi-Lich plus anything is a pretty tough combination.

[Traianvs]

i can think of some examples in BG2...certain monsters have the ability to confuse or control my characters... pretty annoying especially because confusion and so on is deadly, i usually am able to kill my enemies with my remaining party members but when these specific monsters are protected by some serious bashing monsters or warriors it's hard because i need to concentrate on the confusion- monsters whilst getting whacked by warriors.. really tough, undoubtedly the ****tiest thing in BG2, spells such as feeblemind, chaos, and confusion, or hold, they last so long (even though the time was halved since BG1, but it's ridiculous, your char is long dead before the effect wears out!)

oddly i never seem to succeed chaos, hold spells and so on, most monsters are immune or do a successful save, and humanoids are protected by spell deflecting spells and so on...(and the warriors always save vs spell whereas my warriors usually don't )

[MattyBoy]

So, in BG, does the confusion spell get broken as soon as you kill the caster?

[loinburger]

Originally posted by MattyBoy
So, in BG, does the confusion spell get broken as soon as you kill the caster?

I don't think so. It's not like a Dominate spell, since the caster doesn't need to maintain concentration on the spell in order to maintain it. It's more like a Feeblemind.

[MattyBoy]

I have to gloat.
Look at my current selection of weapons.
d - the rustproof +0 Vorpal Blade
e - the rustproof +0 Cleaver
f - the rustproof +0 Frost Brand
g - the blessed rustproof +1 Demonbane
h - the blessed rustproof +6 Mjollnir
i - the rustproof +0 Magicbane

...and I'm not even Envoy of Balance yet.

[Stefu]

Floating eye and newt. No question.

[moomin]

Nethack is probably THE game for stuff like that.

[Grumbold]

In RPG's a whole bunch of small critters intelligent enough to employ tactics are often far more effective than one boss monster. This is even more true when they have complimentary powers, like magic using, magic resistant Drow with tank support to keep you unable to close in and shut down their spellcasting - just like your own party tries to do but with extra monster special abilities. Unfortunately most computer games can't get the AI right to do this properly.

[loinburger]

The AI for liches (IMO liches and especially demi-liches are the most dangerous adversaries when they're roleplayed correctly) in BG is absolutely horrendous. You just cast anti-magic shell (or a similar spell), sit around while they waste their spells on you, and then when they're out of spells you send in a warrior and hack them to pieces. Pathetic. Unfortunately, the real intelligence controlling the liches in my one foray into tabletop RPGing made the computer's liches look like friggin geniuses.

[Grumbold]

Pen and paper RPG's live or die on the compatability of the ref and their players. If the players are smart the ref needs to be smarter. If the players aren't into subtlety they will not appreciate a ref that outfoxes them at every turn. Some players want blood shed in buckets and others are delighted when they can spend a twelve hour session without a single blow struck (and sometimes even a single dice rolled.) I've spent sessions where we all cried with laughter and others where the tension was so high even those killed off at midnight stayed absorbed until noon when the adventure finally ended.

If you have a new ref I believe it always pays to start at the basic level of the game. You'll gel as a team or decide its not really working long before you get to meet Dragons, Liches etc.

[MattyBoy]

floating eye and newt

Good point. Newt is nothing on its own, but floating eye makes it just strong enough to kill you.

Now I have a new weapon called "Werebane".
I've never heard of that before.

[MattyBoy]

Look I cannot stop boasting here.

How's this for someone who has not even reached Gehennom yet? Admittedly, I'm Envoy now.

BTW, I own +6 gauntlets of dex and +0 gauntlets of power, so I could switch my strength/dex to 25/18 (lets me throw Mjollnir and have it return). Don't know which I prefer.

Jack the Champion St:18/** Dx:24 Co:18 In:18 Wi:23 Ch:11 Neutral
Dlvl:26 $:0 HP:299(299) Pw:40(142) AC:-33 Xp:27/70002151 T:63944 Hungry

You are piously aligned.
You are fire resistant.
You are cold resistant.
You are sleep resistant.
You are poison resistant.
You are magic-protected.
You are telepathic.
You are warned.
You have automatic searching.
You are stealthy.
You can teleport.
You have teleport control.
You are protected.
You have polymorph control.
You are very fast.
You have reflection.
Your life will be saved.
You are extremely lucky.
You have extra luck.
Good luck does not time out for you.
You can safely pray.