The future of MMOG's?

[faded glory]

I spend about 170$ a year on MMOG. EQ and ww2online. I think i will also get a sony station subscription for infantry. I only will play these games maybe 80 hours a year...but they keep me busy on those rainy days when theres nothing better to do.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by faded glory



How is that possible!!!!?

I play EQ on Sonystation occasionally. And the size of that world is immense already.

I
believe what they want to try to do is have far more players per universe using the sort of dynamic server loading that Asherons Call pioneered. So instead of 30 different EQ's there will be maybe only 6 SWG's provided they can get the load balancing right.

Of course EQ has now had 3 or 4 expansion sets, so SWG may not start 10x bigger, but it could easily grow bigger and bigger as each world gets more content added.

[Jethro83]

Those online games like UO and even Diablo II tend to be worse than reality for me, even if reality does stink, I prefer it to any of these games. I say, the main reason is Player-Killing.

I read about one case of player-killing, one guy in Ultima Online was playing as though he actually lived in this world, he was making an honest living (probably as a guild leader's jester or something, because that was how he was dressed in the screenies). Three strangers in armour and heavy cloaks show up at his doorstep.

"My first guests! Prithee come in for some ale!"

The three strangers gladly accept his invitation and walk into the cosy little abode this guy built up for himself, and have a mug of quality Britannian ale at the table each.

"Tis nice to have guests every once in a while. Can I get thee anything else?"

The poor fool didn't see what was coming at him.

"Corp Por"

"Corp Por"

"Corp Por"

The three cast a spell on him that killed him. Next screenshot in the story, the guy is lying dead, with everything in his house, including the clothes he was wearing, taken away.

The perpetrators got away with no punishment, as there was no laws preventing them from murdering and stealing from someone.

Can you imagine anything like that in reality? Kinda makes me glad that magics like that aren't around in reality. And makes me glad that there are actually laws to follow in reality as well.

[Grumbold]

There are a lot of articles on the web about PK activity. Richard Garriott etc pioneered this sort of dynamic world and were not expecting the kind of antisocial amoral mass murderers to arise. Since it became apparent that a minority of players absolutely would not abide by any kind of moral code without rigid external enforcement all games have adapted their strategies.

In EQ and AC, for instance, unless you choose to activate your own PK status you cannot harm or be harmed by any other players. Special servers are set up for those who want PK anarchy or tribal/racial/guild PK wars. Other games (AO, DAoC) make lots of areas safe but put the richest rewards in PK zones so that you get to grow up safe but brave the shark infested waters later after you have had time to make allies and become confident in using your own skills.

Its no longer a PK'ers paradise out there since companies found they made lots more money from the casual gamers than the hardcore 24/7 elite and most of the hardcore stayed playing anyway.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by LordAzreal
The three cast a spell on him that killed him. Next screenshot in the story, the guy is lying dead, with everything in his house, including the clothes he was wearing, taken away.

The perpetrators got away with no punishment, as there was no laws preventing them from murdering and stealing from someone.

Can you imagine anything like that in reality?

How thin is the veil of civilzation which we have drawn over the blood-thristy beast called man.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Grumbold
In EQ and AC, for instance, unless you choose to activate your own PK status you cannot harm or be harmed by any other players. Special servers are set up for those who want PK anarchy or tribal/racial/guild PK wars. Other games (AO, DAoC) make lots of areas safe but put the richest rewards in PK zones so that you get to grow up safe but brave the shark infested waters later after you have had time to make allies and become confident in using your own skills.

Which is why I don't waste my time with any of those games anymore.

Not only does taking away PvP make the game extremely boring and mundane, it kills any chance of creating a roleplaying atmosphere that the game has.


I hear Shadowbane(I think that's the name, anyways) will have open PvP, though.... I might give it a whirl when it comes out.

[Grumbold]

They all have +pvp servers (e.g. AC has Darktide) so anyone who wants kill or be killed anarchy can get it if they want to. Isn't that what you want?

Personally I think that unlimited PvP fails because it cannot be policed properly. In an anarchic society a wild killer can be tamed by having threats levelled against their person. If they kill enough innocent folk then a contract will be made. Someone equally skilled will hunt them down and kill them permanently. A ruthless mob may not be able to find him but might settle for killing his family and burning down his house. He ultimately has no escape from justice. In pvp games you can be invulnerable to players of lower level in the way that a real life person never could be to a bullet or arrow. You can log off for a week. You can't be tracked and your identity can't be broadcasted in an effective manner etc. Guilds can help protect their own and their online turf but its still pretty inadequate.

The original concept for the Middle Earth MMORPG with permanent death could have been very interesting to see. Would rampant PK have been quashed as powerful guilds took it upon themselves to enforce laws? Would crimes like murder have been possible to get away with when a player can reroll and go finger their murderer? How would people even approach monster hunting if a single mistake could ruin weeks of character development?

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Grumbold
They all have +pvp servers (e.g. AC has Darktide) so anyone who wants kill or be killed anarchy can get it if they want to. Isn't that what you want?

No, that's not what I want - seperating PvP from non-PvP creates a majority population of greifers. You get all of the worst poeple, and the most mindless of PKs, all compacted into one server.

That said, I still found those servers more fun then the regular ones... atleast there was more to it then just sitting on your butt waiting for a goblin to spawn.

Personally I think that unlimited PvP fails because it cannot be policed properly.

Not really - it's because they can't be bothered to police it properly... or design the game properly, for that matter.


In my ideal MMoRPG, PvP would be dealt with much in the same fashion that will be in ALFA - PvP would be completely open, anyone of any level or class can attack or be killed by anyone else. Death would be permanent, unless someone can bring your corpse to a priest of sufficient power to raise you. Towns would have (mortal)Guards, and a legal system controled by the GMs (although this wouldn't neccisarily apply to all towns). From there on, it's mostly up to the players to decide how the game will be.

Granted, ALFA has the privilege of screening it players...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Osweld
Which is why I don't waste my time with any of those games anymore.

Not only does taking away PvP make the game extremely boring and mundane, it kills any chance of creating a roleplaying atmosphere that the game has.

How does one relate to another? PvP certainly is and was not in the overwhelming cases of p-n-p RPG campaigns, I don't see how you can assert these campaigns to be boring.

I also don't see how prohibiting killing other PC's "kills any chance of creating a roleplaying atmosphere that the game has." Is that what you do with your characters in RPG campaigns: killing other PC's? How is that conducive to a good roleplaying experience?

[Asher]

Asheron's Call 2 is going to rule you all.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


How does one relate to another? PvP certainly is and was not in the overwhelming cases of p-n-p RPG campaigns, I don't see how you can assert these campaigns to be boring.

I also don't see how prohibiting killing other PC's "kills any chance of creating a roleplaying atmosphere that the game has." Is that what you do with your characters in RPG campaigns: killing other PC's? How is that conducive to a good roleplaying experience?

In order to roleplay, players need to be able to interact with each other and taking away PvP takes away alot of possible interaction.

PvP is especially important when you are doing something as grand as a MMORPG, are we to expect that all of those hundreds of thousands of characters are all really nice and friendly people? and all of those ogres and trolls are actualy really nice fellows who just want to hang around with humans and camp goblin spawns?



Besides, a world where the only danger comes from a bunch of mindless AI creatures is extremely boring.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Star Wars Galaxies is about to come out. It takes place on (I believe) 8 worlds, each larger than Everquest.

Slight correction in this statement

The info I heard was:

"Just one world in Star Wars Galaxies is the size of all Everquest. And there are eight worlds."

This may be read to mean that one world in SWG is the size of EQ, but, although there are seven other worlds, the other seven are not that big.

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by Osweld
In order to roleplay, players need to be able to interact with each other and taking away PvP takes away alot of possible interaction.
...
Besides, a world where the only danger comes from a bunch of mindless AI creatures is extremely boring.

I disagree. There is a type of interaction other than hacking people's heads off, and that is talking to them. In this way, you can form a hunting party to take on monsters much too large to kill by yourself, or do quests in a group. That is what RPG's are all about, and NOT proving how 1337 your character is.

This may come as a shock, but some people actually enjoy going out on quests without the fear of being gang-banged by a group of players 10 or 20 levels about yourself and having no chance to survive.

[Urban Ranger]

I agree. Killing each other is just one type of interaction. Sure, killings exist in the real world too, but they account for only a very small fraction of human interactions.

Other possible interactions include talking and helping each other out. That may be boring to some people, I reckon though most players aren't too keen on getting jumped by a group of immortal killers while they are just minding their own business.

[FrustratedPoet]

I agree with these sentiments.

An MMORPG without any form of PvP would be rather boring, and I don't think a specific PvP sever is the best solution because that just attracts all the griefers. However, I do think that PvP play should ideally be optional (such as in Camelot) where you either go to a specific game zone where PvP is enabled or somehow otherwise flag yourself as available for PvP combat.

Sometimes PvP is fun ... and an MMORPG would be at its best when people are free to play however they want, either with PvP or without ... and a person's taste for playing as such may well change from day to day. Playing in a frenzied PvP environment and in a relatively safe monster-killing environment should be sepearate and equally accessable to every player.