Do You Like Wargames?

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Haupt. Dietrich:

Have you tried attacking the South and THEN retreating north? If you can draw the South Koreans/Americans north, try to get them to approach BOTH the Chinese and Soviet borders. There is a percentage chance that the closer the UN forces approach these borders that both the Chinese and Soviets will intervene in the conflict. This should be done fairly quickly, as the UN ground forces will receive huge reinforcements at Pusan later in the conflict.

The North Koreans NEED this massive influx of communist air and ground forces.

On the other hand, this increases the likelihood that the UN (read the United States) may use tactical nuclear weapons.

Oh, the dilemmas of fighting regional and global conflicts

Interesting tactic. I guess I didn't consider the possibility of getting either the Russians or the Chinese involved. I'll have to give this a try tonight! Thanks for the tip.

[Leonidas]

Haupt. Dietrich:

In case that strategy doen't work (hey, you never know what the AI will do - that MacArthur can surprise you), here is another strategy for the North Koreans taken from Planet Holger:


Strategies for victory and defeat - Korea 50-51 against Programmed Opponent.

Version 1.00, Copenhagen 14-06-99

(C) Roger

Scenario: Korea 50-51

Side: North Korea

Result: Significant Victory


Final Situation Briefing: Victory

Enemy held objectives value: 50, Enemy loss penalty: 31.

Friendly held objectives value: 150, Friendly loss penalty: 26.

Our victory level is 105. This is a significant victory.


Mistakes of a beginner

The very first TOAW scenario I played, now only two weeks ago, was Korea 50-51 scenario - as the North Koreans (NK). The first few times resulted in horrible losses and on other occasions the computer calling the result a draw (around turn 28) was extremely generous. Re-reading the manual and Steve Knowlton and Steve Schneider’s TOAW Strategy Guide-version 1.06 prompted me to re-think my operational strategy! In the review of the loss(es) it became clear that I lost because:

* UN forces were able to advance quickly and easily, as bridges were not destroyed during retreat

* No consideration of terrain for defensive purposes

* Defensive locations were not fortified i.e. sufficient advance planning

* Defence by establishing a fortified line, that was pierced, rather than in depth

* Inadequate or no reserves to hold heavily attacked defensive locations

* No reserve forces to use for counterattacks

* Poor positioning of forces to deal with the opponents counterattacks and or breakthroughs

* Allowing forces to be easily encircled and cut off from reserves and or supplies

* Engaging opposition forces by accident, by running into them, rather than by design

* No use of flanking attacks

* No consideration for terrain when attacking locations


Operational Strategy

My first thought was to use a strategy that was known to work. So, first of all I tried to use Holger Wilcks strategy, as defined on his web page, but I was unable to make any progress South of Taejon. Typically, NK forces were overwhelmed by UN forces counterattacking from Sangju towards Chongju, Ch’onan and Ch’ungju and a second UN counterattack at Tonghae, from Tonghae those enemy forces would then swing southwest towards Seoul.

The defensive (fortified) line I placed just North of the 38th parallel, after blowing the access bridges, rarely held very long and had the side-effect of leaving large numbers of my forces cut off in South Korea. However, this approach did yield a draw for me because by about turn 28 the UN forces were still just (one hex) south of P’yongyang and Wonsan. It was time for something else…

Having reconsidered the elements of operational strategy again, it seemed that I needed to do the following to achieve a victory:

1) Do not split the force between those in South Korea and those assigned to fortified defence just north of the access bridges of the 38th parallel, this unnecessarily weakened both forces
Do not press too far South, Taejon is sufficiently far south.
Sending forces towards Kwangju and or Taegu spreads the forces too thinly to be able to react to the inevitable counterattack

2) Re-establish road and rail links to quickly move reinforcements to the front, particularly Wonsan to Wijongbu, and then onto Wonju and Seoul. Reinforcements from P’yongyang can always get to the front via Wonsan (two moves) if the railroad at Kaesong is still damaged

3) Capture the supply points at Inch’on and Kunsan

4) Ensure that Tonghae and the south-west road to Chech’on remains in friendly hands

5) Ensure that Ch’ungju is sufficiently well protected to prevent UN forces swinging into Suwon and therefore cutting off the forces at Taejon

6) Guard against any surprise attacks over the mountains from Sangju or Yech’on

7) Ensure that near Tonghae artillery support is maintained to deal with the UN naval forces that bombard the area


Operational Strategy objectives

This lead to the following initial objectives:

Split the forces into the major force (attacking Taejon 75%-85%) and the minor force (15%-25%) attacking Tonghae (the forces include the later addition of primarily infantry reinforcements)
Capture all of the cities from Wijongbu to Taejon with the major force

Capture Kangnung and Tonghae with the minor force
Establish a front line from Taejon to Ch’ungjo to Tonghae
Re-establish rail and road links to Ch’onan and Wonju as soon as possible

Transport reinforcements to the front as soon as possible
Hold all objectives


Tactical implementation

Those operational objectives were achieved by around turn 6.

The North Korean air force is simply destroyed almost regardless of tactics employed before turn 6. However, it became clear that my concerns over counterattacks from Sangju towards Ch’ungju were justified as UN forces came streaming in and massing for an attack. This prompted me to perform a pre-emptive strike at these forces in the mountains and hills and by turn 9 I had established a line from Taejon to Tonghae. The UN forces then mounted major counter-offensives around Taejon and Tonghae – the lines held, just, but not without sending forces to cover temporary breakthroughs. Along with this the UN also sent a ship north-west to land a small force at Inch’on. This was dealt with and as a result two small garrisons were placed at Inch’on and Kunsan to prevent any further unopposed landings.

Around move 13 I pushed the front line southeast with the idea of drawing UN forces into the mountainous area where they would be on more difficult terrain and have fewer supplies. It would also weaken any future counter-offensives if the UN were busy trying to hold the front line. After having performed a holding operation at Tonghae I pushed forward and I also launched small forces to capture Kimch’on and Yech’on with the idea of cutting off the forces at Sangju and removing their supply lines. These proved successful but in order to maintain them I had to send reinforcements as the UN forces mounted serious opposition to those initiatives. By turn 25 I had held Taejon and Yech’on but had lost Kimch’on, the UN were now pushing back really hard but at move 30 I had won with a significant victory!



Final thoughts

The push southeast across the mountains and hills was a double-edged move and in retrospect perhaps I should have fortified the line from Taejon to Ch’ungjo to Tonghae and maintained a few mobile reserves to deal with the breakthroughs. This would have freed more forces to push towards Kimch’on and Kumi and with a larger force here the prospect of taking Taegu becomes a serious threat. After having said that capturing Yech’on, or cutting off the road to Yech’on, is still well worth the effort as this in combination with the southeastern push will completely cut off any UN forces north of Sangju.

In the heat of battle it is easy to split artillery from its formation HQ and this severely reduces its effectiveness as does moving forces into poorly supplied locations. Splitting units for reconnaissance work is useful in determining enemy locations or moving one unit ahead of the main force movements. Only ever attack if there is a significant local superiority in attacking forces and try to evaporate the defence before any reinforcements arrive. Use tactical reserves to supplement defensive locations and to provide a counterattack capability.

Hope this helps and good luck!

Let me know how you make out

[Cookie Monster]

Outstanding advice Leonidas! I've copied your last post and will study it later. If I get a chance I'll check out those websites as well.

Well I started a new game last night and am on turn 28 right now. In the beginning I only managed to approach the outskirts of Seoul in the west and the second city down south of the border on the eastern end. (I can't remember the name of the town)

The line was fairly stable all along the front but I couldn't punch through the defences of Seoul. I also made the mistake of failing to provide artillery cover for my forces on the eastern side so the UN navies wreaked havoc on my forces there. Around turn 18 the UN broke through on the eastern side. A few turns later they cracked my line near Seoul. Then I thought to retreat as was suggested yesterday. I stubbornly (and this is probably a mistake) stabilized and held the line in the east. However I was forced to retreat in the west all the way to Pyongang sp.? when I got news that the Chinese were threatening to intervene. On turn 25 I got the Chinese reinforcements and 5 groups of Mig-15's. I began to retreat in the eastern side and with the Chinese forces am planning a counterassault. This is where I left off. Can't wait to see what happens next.

My biggest mistake I think is the tendancy to refuse to retreat. I guess I just can't stand to see the AI beat me up. However I'm learning and having fun in the process. I'm gonna read up on the various strategies you've supplied and start another game after I finish out my current one. I'll keep you posted.

[MattyBoy]

There's one of those 3-pack packages (about $25 Aus) that's supposed to have OaW, Jagged Alliance 2 and the
Kosovo expansion for OaW2. In reality it has both OaW's and the Expansion (Plus JA2 I guess - haven't tried that
one) but all of the disks are mislabelled.

Yep. I picked that up in Melbourne (Eliz St, near JB HiFi) for the sake of JA2. Played a couple of games of JA2 but got bored too early to get a feel for the complex and apparently realistic mechanics and strategies that it provides. ...at least according to the fan-sites. The jury is still out, I guess.

As for TOAW, my experience was similar but even more so.

I guess I would like to come back to JA2 sometime, but most likely to go after Fantasy General or something first.

If you are still struggling to find it and you are in Melbourne, I am happy to sell it to you for $15 AUD. If all else fails and you are going totally insane for wanting it, I'll be in Sydney at the end of March too.

[Leonidas]

" My biggest mistake I think is the tendancy to refuse to retreat. I guess I just can't stand to see the AI beat me up. However I'm learning and having fun in the process. I'm gonna read up on the various strategies you've supplied and start another game after I finish out my current one. I'll keep you posted".

Haupt. Dietrich: I know how you feel. When I play I want to hold onto every inch of territory

But it sounds like you are doing very well now. . .

Now that the Chinese have intervened your chances of success have increased dramatically. Move the Chinese by rail as fast as you can. You will get lots of reinforcements.

General Advice:

1) Place your fighters on air superiority

2) Place half your bombers on interdiction; use the other half in combat support. But rotate them often as they will wear down fast.

3) Place your infantry/anti-tanks in the front lines, and form several mobile reserves with your armour. Place your reserves on
"tactical reserves".

4) Place your arty in stacks of 2 or 3 just behind your front line and pound away at the UN forces. This will wear them down.

5) Place your headquarters units immediately behind your front line troops and near your arty to give them good supply.

6) TOAW is a game of maneuver. You don't want to butt heads with the UN forces as this will wear your troops down. Mass your forces at a weak point in the UN lines and try to encircle part of their forces. If you can do this, you will cut them off from their supplies and they will grow weaker over time, and will be very easy to defeat (think about what happened to Paulus' 6th army at Stalingrad). The AI will be fanatical to break away from being encircled, so make sure you have big stacks of units at the areas you plan to penetrate and encircle.

Try to have large and powerful stacks on your flanks, while using sufficient forces to pin and hold the UN forces in the middle. Don't attack in the middle; dig in. Then hit the UN flanks with lots of arty, bombers, etc for a couple of turns. Then hit the UN flanks with your massed stacks of infantry, with the plan of moving both your flanks in a circling movement until both flanks meet. Believe me, if you can encircle a big chunk of the UN forces, and hold them, you will have bagged quite a sizeable army. But the AI will do everything to breakout, so be prepared with some reserves.

7) Then drive hard and fast. BIG UN reinforcements will now start arriving at Pusan, and they will be a big headache.

Best of luck

[Cookie Monster]

Leonidas,


Well I finished my game yesterday and lost


Oh well, just started another game and I've included a jpeg (had to crop it down though) image of the current situation for you if you're interested.

As you can see it is turn 12 and I'm dealing with the major UN counteroffensive! My lines in the east have broken but I still have Seoul. I've been thinking about just trying to hold out until turn 28 but I don't think I'll make it. So I've decided to begin the retreat to the North in the hopes of getting the Chinese involved. By the way do the Russians ever send in troops? Just curious cause I could use their help.

I think you'll see how my play style is by the way I arranged my forces. Sorry for the 3d icons but I actually like using them. It reminds me of my toy soldiers I had as a kid.

Unfortunately I didn't read your last post before starting this game but I don't think it's too late to use some of the tips. Especially 3,4,6, and 7. 1,2 and 5 I definately do now.

Let me know what you think!

[Leonidas]

Haupt. Dietrich:

Too bad you lost. But that's what makes TOAW such a great game! The AI is smart, and you have to really think about the strategy you're going to use. It makes you want to keep playing, just to get the satisfaction of beating that 'ol MacArthur

As to your situation:

1) Do you see what the UN forces are trying to do? (For those of you who are following this discussion, the North Koreans are RED and the UN forces are GREEN). The UN forces are attempting a classical encirclement of your troops to the south of your main lines. If they succeed in closing the circle, those troops are doomed. And you can't afford to lose them.

2) Holding territory isn't important; the destruction of the enemy forces is. Your situation isn't hopeless, yet. In the west, slowly move your troops back, while at the same time holding that western flank.

In the east, you just may be able to pinch off and encircle that entire UN army along the coast. Move you forces south to pinch off the road and hold it. By doing this, you have cut off these UN forces from their source of supply. You don't have to attack them, just consolidate your defense around these western UN forces and just hit them with arty. After a couple of turns slowly start to reduce this pocket with limited attacks.

3) The main area you need to worry about is in the west. Slowly withdraw and then dig in. Your main priority right now is to give your western forces enough time to destroy that encirced UN army and to keep open your sources of supply and to prevent the UN forces from cutting-off and encircling your forces in the east.

3) If you can't hold the UN off and if it looks like you will be encircled, then disengage and retreat north with the bulk of your army. Keep just enough troops in the front lines, to at least temporarily hold the UN forces.

4) You need those Chinese reinforcements. If the UN forces come close enough to threaten the Soviet border, they WILL intervene. So do everything you can to lure the AI to pursue your forces to both the Chinese and Soviet borders.

5) After you get your reinforcements and it's time to counterattack, try to maneuver your forces around the southern flanks of the UN forces and cut off their supplies, just like the UN is currently trying to do to you.

Good luck, comrade. Keep us informed as to your battle. And yes, I like the pictures. It would be nice if you could post a picture every 10 turns, so we can follow the action.

[Cookie Monster]

Leonidas,


Well the battle has really developed violently since my last post! I tried to slowly withdraw in the west like you suggested. However the AI managed to punch through a weak link in my withdrawing forces and I had to retreat pell mell to the Yalu! That MacArthur sure is smart!

On the east I did manage to stabilize the line right at the border. I temporarily cut off about 7 units and had them surrounded. My forces though were a little weak (yellow and orange supply status) and so the AI rescued it's encircled troops. This did not break me though and I continued to defend the eastern border area utilizing the terrain.

Meanwhile in the west I retreated all the way to P'yongyang. That's when the Chinese intervened. I set all their fighters to air superiority and ignore losses. This greatly reduced the interdiction attacks against my forces that were using the roads. I then brought 4 of the 7 chinese armies to the P'yongyang front and managed to encirle two pockets of UN forces! 3 units of UN marines perished as well as 2 units of armor. My eastern force was finally surrounded and evaporated! I only have one division of troops left from that force. The prospects of reinforcements is nil since many units evaporated in a giant surrounded pocket.

So what was left of the eastern force retreated to about the middle of the east coast of North Korea where the UN was greated by 3 chinese armies. 3 more chinese armies entered the fray as reinforcements and together with the remnants of the NK army I punched a big hole in the UN's center! I don't have a screenshot but I can get you one later today. It may not be available until late this evening as I'm working late today

But it's fun to share my experiences with everyone and hope you are enjoying my battle! I'll try to get a screenshot from when I was retreating too. Thanks for the advice, I'm starting to get the hang of this.

[Leonidas]

I then brought 4 of the 7 chinese armies to the P'yongyang front and managed to encirle two pockets of UN forces! 3 units of UN marines perished as well as 2 units of armor. My eastern force was finally surrounded and evaporated! I only have one division of troops left from that force.

Haupt. Dietrich:

Outstanding! It hurts big time to see your armies evaporate, but it sure feels good when you can pull off an encirclement too

With the UN forces so deep in North Korea, it's possible to encircle a huge number of enemy troops. If you have punched through their line, keep driving through, then begin a circling movement to surround them, especially with your armoured forces, followed up by the infantry to pin the UN forces in place. Use your arty and bombers to pound the points of penetraton.

Basically, what you are attempting to do is a classic Blitzkrieg encirclement. The opening phases of Barbarossa in 1941 used the same technique: The Germans drove hard with armoured and mechanized forces to surround huge pockets of Soviet Armies, and used infantry, arty, and dive bombers to reduce these pockets and force mass surrenders.

Yes, it's fun to follow your battle - very interesting. We would all like to see any screenshots you have that will help us follow the course of the battle.

Keep up the excellent work, comrade General!

[Cookie Monster]

Well I managed to sneak off for a while and get the latest screenshot of my battle. It is turn 29. As you can see the I have scattered remnants of units cut off in the south near the eastern coast. However I've broken through the center of the line and am trying to encircle the UN. If I can find the troops that have decent supply and get them through the hole I'll be golden.

The area in the center left is near P'yongang. The UN line there was significantly weakened but they managed to rotate the weak units out and replace them with fresh troops. Sometimes it seems like the UN has an endless supply of fresh troops! What I plan to do now is shift some of the forces from here to participate in the breakthrough in the center. If I can make it to Seoul and hold onto it for the remainder of the game I should be able to pull off a marginal victory.

I'll keep you posted.

BTW I just finished reading "Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege 1942-1943" by Antony Beevor. Great book based a lot on recently released archives from ex Soviet sources along with German documents. It's a fast read due to the fact that the author tells the story of the horrors and hopes of all the combatants on the Eastern Front in WW2.

[Cookie Monster]

Sorry for the poor image quality. Had a problem with cropping the image down to be able to fit in the previous message.

[Leonidas]

Haupt. Dietrich:

It looks like you are doing very well. From the looks of the screenshot, you may have an opportunity to pull off a double encirclement of the UN forces on both the east and west coasts! This is what you may already be doing

IMHO keep just enough troops to the north of the UN forces to pin them, and have them dig in. Setup a couple of mobile reserves. Then push all available forces through that gap you created, and once they are through the gap, have them fan out to the east and west, and try to encircle both UN armies. As you move your units into place beside the UN forces have them dig in. Then use your bombers and arty to pound them.

Yes, I heard that Stalingrad book is supposed to be an excellent read. Did you learn anything new about the Stalingrad situation? BTW, I would also recommend renting the movie "Stalingrad" - one of the best war movies about the German-Soviet conflict around.

Also, Panzer General II has a great new campaign out called "Stalingrad". It is very well done and certainly gives you the gritty feel for that conflict.

I also think at the wargamer site there is a scenario created for TOAW I that deals with Stalingrad. That would be interesting to play.

Just a general question for anyone to answer: Do you have to like history in order to play and enjoy wargames? For me personally, I have read about the great battles, campaigns, and legendary historical figures all my life. It is a dream come true to be able to re-create and play many of the battles and "what-ifs" that I have read about.

And on the flip side: Does playing wargames increase one's interest in history? The fact that CivII is historically based is what first drew me to the game.

Ahhh, I guess I'm just a sucker for a great historical strategy game

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Just a general question for anyone to answer: Do you have to like history in order to play and enjoy wargames? For me personally, I have read about the great battles, campaigns, and legendary historical figures all my life. It is a dream come true to be able to re-create and play many of the battles and "what-ifs" that I have read about.

And on the flip side: Does playing wargames increase one's interest in history? The fact that CivII is historically based is what first drew me to the game.

I don't think its a necessary prerequisite but it helps. War stories, comics and the like have always appealed to young boys and wargames can be played on the same superficial level just to beat the enemy. I think you need to develop a true appreciation of the events to love the really detailed games though or those where the forces are very unbalanced so you have to view a slow and careful withdrawal as a victory.

I can't say I ever related Civ to history because its just too superficial. EU certainly encouraged me to go out and learn a lot more about that period of history than I ever knew before.

[Cookie Monster]

Leonidas

Yes the Stalingrad book did teach me a thing or two about the battle. I've been reading WW2 books since I was in the 4th grade but this book captured the true horror that went on there at Stalingrad. The book gets into how Stalin was on the verge of secretly giving up the war prior to the battle. It goes into the minds of Hitler and Stalin as well and explains how each man handled the war. Then there are the details of the battle that I have never read before or at least never read but have stick in my mind. The author does a good job capturing your attention and breaking down all the details in an easily followed manner.

Leonidas and Grumbold

I agree that having some knowledge of history does help one get into playing wargames. If it weren't for my love of history, particularly WW2, then I wouldn't have bought games like PG, PG2, PG3 Scorched Earth, TOAW2, and ACOW. I have many more wargames both on computer and boardgames. (Remember the classics like PanzerBlitz and Third Reich?) I think it is easier for someone with historical interests to get into TBS games/wargames then someone with a great sports/outdoor activities interest. Those types usually get FPS or Role Playing games. (Contest me if you think I am making an unfair generalization)

Finally I should have an update for you on my current Korean scenario after lunch today. Didn't get a chance to continue from my last update lastnight as I came home late. Let's see if I can indeed pull off a double envelopement!

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Grumbold


I don't think its a necessary prerequisite but it helps. War stories, comics and the like have always appealed to young boys and wargames can be played on the same superficial level just to beat the enemy. I think you need to develop a true appreciation of the events to love the really detailed games though or those where the forces are very unbalanced so you have to view a slow and careful withdrawal as a victory.

I can't say I ever related Civ to history because its just too superficial. EU certainly encouraged me to go out and learn a lot more about that period of history than I ever knew before.

Grumbold: Boy, do I remember reading war comics as a kid, and playing wargames with toy guns (and sticks if we didn't have pistols). It was nothing violent; just plain fun with the neighbourhood kids

Yes, it sure helps to appreciate the details of a tough battle. I really like to take the side of the underdog and see if I can change the outcome. For me, playing wargames tends to make "history come alive".

I have heard a lot of good things about EU2 so I think I'll pick that up within the next few days.