Starfleet Battles....

[Velociryx]

Hi Rav and all! (Loved your comment, btw Ravagon!! )

Yeah...I found F&E to be entertaining, but a LOT of grunt work and a lot of really HUGE battles, tho it always surprised folks when that relatively little Kzin fleet could send a MUCH larger one packing.

Absolutely true that the Hydrans can be a real BEAR for a Kzin player...noooo denying that! The upshot tho, is that just as Kzin ships tend to be slightly smaller than the comparable BPV ships they'll be fighting (due to paying for special drones and yes! GOTTA love those higher percentage of armor, multi warhead, and swordfish drones! WhoooHooo!), so too will the Hydran ships be smaller (and thus, about the same size as the Kzin) thanks to having to buy those fighters...and fighters are *awfully* easy to kill with disruptor fire.

Of all the races that pos a significant challenge to the Kzin, the Hydrans are probably my least worrisome. In the case of Fusion armed ships, just saying out of range 3 will be sufficient for a win. Sabre dance them to death...kill the pesky fighters and don't let them close.

Hellbores are a little trickier (and IMO, more dangerous), but even they can be dealt with, given slower arming cycles and a wicked cost to arm.

I HATED fighting the Lyrans tho...blast those ESGs!

In essence, there's really only two ways to play the Kzin, making them, IMO, a GREAT choice for a relatively new player.

You can either launch a drone swarm and follow them in, or sabre dance (or some combo of the two). 'bout the only race I feel comfortable sabre dancing with would be the Hydrans and Plasma chuckers. Klingons have better arcs, so that's out, but they can't take a punch, and lots of phasers or no, they can't stop all the drones AND do significant damage to a pretty sturdy Kzin ship. Gorn ships are fun to fight...can't turn worth a crap and, though they have power and LOTS of shuttles, I never use my drones on them 'cept for the kill. Roms are sneaky, but that applies to Roms fighting anyone...annoying opponents@ LOL

Feds are actually not too bad to deal with. If they overload torps, just stay out of range and dance them to death...if they standard/prox load, wait till they fire, and charge in. Phaser ones are awesome things, but many, if not most will have to be used on drones (cos you're right, most Kzin players never launch their drones in a single impulse, specifically to avoid the easy t-bomb....shotgun racks, a scatterpack (and even better, a scatter AND a shatterpack!) load out, and with many ships having double control, the Kzin can lure out the WW, nix it, and field so many drones that the opponent can't cope.

Ahhh, that's why I love small ship actions with the Kzin. Your average frigate/destroyer can MAYBE stop 6 drones, firing most if not all weapons at them. 2-3 shuttles max. And a single drone hit will wreck, if not bring down a facing shield.

Three Kzin Frigates then, could *easily* field 24 drones--having another six at the ready, for the same turn--(and if even one of those had double control, control them all), post WW, which would be enough to implode (or nearly so) a pair of DD's.

:: sigh:: Ahhh, the memories....

-=Vel=-

[ravagon]

Muahahaha! [Darth Vader mode] I have you now! [/Darth Vader mode]

Originally posted by Velociryx
...and fighters are *awfully* easy to kill with disruptor fire.

These would be those same disruptors you didn't arm as you were too busy maintaining speed 30? Heh heh.

Originally posted by Velociryx
In the case of Fusion armed ships, just saying out of range 3 will be sufficient for a win. Sabre dance them to death...kill the pesky fighters and don't let them close.

Hellbores are a little trickier (and IMO, more dangerous), but even they can be dealt with, given slower arming cycles and a wicked cost to arm.

Now thats interesting. I always found keeping out of hellbore range (or lethal hellbore range anyway) to be much easier than keeping out of fusion range - due mainly to the reduced power load, hence increased speed of the fusion-fighter ships. I was pretty busy launching drones to tie up their gatling phasers (didn't want to get hit by those at point blank as well as the fusion beams) too. I think I managed to break even against the Hydrans overall but as my successful ships always came away damaged I always felt a bit overmatched.
I tended to play more in the advanced era too which meant I was facing the nasty version of the stinger with about 4 fusion charges and a phas-G. Those things you just had to kill, and quickly!
I remember one matchup against a HB/Fus combination cruiser type (forgotten the name of this one ) whence one of my (weakened) shields was taken out by a hellbore and one of those aforementioned fighters performed one of those range-0 maneuvers on me and delivered a nasty blow through the down shield. Big ouch!

Originally posted by Velociryx
I HATED fighting the Lyrans tho...blast those ESGs!

Originally posted by Velociryx
Feds are actually not too bad to deal with. If they overload torps, just stay out of range and dance them to death...if they standard/prox load, wait till they fire, and charge in. Phaser ones are awesome things, but many, if not most will have to be used on drones (cos you're right, most Kzin players never launch their drones in a single impulse, specifically to avoid the easy t-bomb....shotgun racks, a scatterpack (and even better, a scatter AND a shatterpack!) load out, and with many ships having double control, the Kzin can lure out the WW, nix it, and field so many drones that the opponent can't cope.

Ahhh, that's why I love small ship actions with the Kzin. Your average frigate/destroyer can MAYBE stop 6 drones, firing most if not all weapons at them. 2-3 shuttles max. And a single drone hit will wreck, if not bring down a facing shield.

Three Kzin Frigates then, could *easily* field 24 drones--having another six at the ready, for the same turn--(and if even one of those had double control, control them all), post WW, which would be enough to implode (or nearly so) a pair of DD's.

Yeah that duoble control thing really was a lifesaver for the Kzin. Sacrificed a lot of relatively cheap drones for a few "less cheap" opposition ships. Only thing going against them really was the relative imbalance between their economies/fleets and that of those they faced. Lot like the Hydrans with their fighters. They gave better than they got but then that was what they HAD to do. Even bpv exchanges were a net loss for the Kzin.

Originally posted by Velociryx
:: sigh:: Ahhh, the memories....

-=Vel=-

Couldn't agree more.

[And on another note - from the sudden appearance of several new threads - It looks as if somebody has been busy! I'll have to take a looksee. Whenever I get a spare week or so though. Crikey you manage to get through a lot! ]

[ravagon]

Incidentally, have you ever tried a matchup between the Kzin and that conjectural race the Klingon DSF made up as an "aggressor squadron"? Called the "Frax" I think.
Appeared in one of the issues of Nexus/Capt's Log.

If you wanted a challenge as a Kzinti player, they were it! Absolutely lethal to the Kzin. Very overpowered. Complete disruptor armament and had a deadly pseudo-special weapon called the Anti-fighter defense (AFD) - a combo ADD (with 12 rounds) and gatling phaser. And they had these in numbers comparable to most races phaser III's.
I think they had one special "sub"-type ship too. Used drones which could be fired while cloaked.

If a Kzin player can break even against those guys, well, thats saying something.

[Velociryx]

Yeah...I've got that FRAX edition...Yowza! Those guys are tough!

And I totally agree about the Advanced Stinger...THERE'S a ship with a big bullseye on it if ever there WAS one! LOL (or, if said player facing the Stingers *doesn't* play it that way, he certainly will next time! Two of those guys can blow up a frigate!

Ahhh yes! C'mon over to my site and check out the latest happenings with the game design! I'm having a blast with it so far!

-=Vel=-

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by ravagon
A fed SCS and a Klingon B10 versus 2 Dominators!!!

Yikes! Did the Andros not have sat ships or something? I wouldn't have wished to be in the Fed/Klingon players shoes.

The Andros have full complement of sat ships, and the Grand Alliance (that's before Operation Unity) has their escort ships, including the first Fed CX - sorry to forget to mention it. It's a big nasty slugfest, since the Feds have fighters coming out of their collective nose, and the B10 has them potentially deadly SFG's.

Originally posted by ravagon
Don't think I've seen that scenario before (As one who always liked the Andro's I think I'd remember it if I had ).

It's in one of the earlier Captain's Logs, too bad I don't have it on hand now.

BTW, what do you think of the changes made to Andros in the Captain's Edition? The main one being putting baby TR's on the sat ships.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

The Andros have full complement of sat ships, and the Grand Alliance (that's before Operation Unity) has their escort ships, including the first Fed CX - sorry to forget to mention it.

Ack! A CX. I knew that sounded too good to be true LOL
Fast overloads and rapid-pulse phasers aren't good news for the Andromedans.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
BTW, what do you think of the changes made to Andros in the Captain's Edition? The main one being putting baby TR's on the sat ships.

Actually I'm still going by the old Vol 1-3. In this part of the world it seems to take a loooong time to get a hold of all of the parts for something like this so I generally stick with what I've got until/unless I can get everything at once.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Absolutely true that the Hydrans can be a real BEAR for a Kzin player...noooo denying that! The upshot tho, is that just as Kzin ships tend to be slightly smaller than the comparable BPV ships they'll be fighting (due to paying for special drones and yes! GOTTA love those higher percentage of armor, multi warhead, and swordfish drones! WhoooHooo!), so too will the Hydran ships be smaller (and thus, about the same size as the Kzin) thanks to having to buy those fighters...and fighters are *awfully* easy to kill with disruptor fire.

It's always a two-edged sword

When you use disruptors on the fighters those are disruptors you won't use on the capital ships

The Hydran counter tactic is to either follow the fighters with the ships or the ships with fighters. If the fighters lead, you have to either content with killing some fighters (not too easy to kill out of shot range, particularly when EW rules are in effect) with your disruptors, or use them at a longer range at the ships.

Originally posted by Velociryx
Of all the races that pos a significant challenge to the Kzin, the Hydrans are probably my least worrisome. In the case of Fusion armed ships, just saying out of range 3 will be sufficient for a win. Sabre dance them to death...kill the pesky fighters and don't let them close.

That's because you have never seen a properly executed Hydran Anchor Hydran ships are extremely durable given their famous "second shield" (unified hull design). A hydran ship with phaser capacitors charged can fly in at max speed and slap a tractor beam on your ship. Now you can't shoot at their fighters, and you know what a couple of Hydran fighters can do at range 0, right?

Originally posted by Velociryx
Hellbores are a little trickier (and IMO, more dangerous), but even they can be dealt with, given slower arming cycles and a wicked cost to arm.

But hellbores have a better probability than disruptors at long range, and once you have a weak shield you're in trouble.

Originally posted by Velociryx
In essence, there's really only two ways to play the Kzin, making them, IMO, a GREAT choice for a relatively new player.

My experiences are just the opposite.

Originally posted by Velociryx
You can either launch a drone swarm and follow them in, or sabre dance (or some combo of the two).

The difficulty is how to handle drones properly. Even if we ignore drone mods, which is quite difficult, you still are left with the problem of using drones. Simply, you need to know how many drones to launch so the enemy is forced to do something. Too few, and he'll just pick them off with phasers. Too many, and you become prone to t-bombs. You'll have to just launch enough so he can't kill them all with phasers, and staggered so a t-bomb can't get them all. It's rather tricky, acutally.

Personally the Feds seem to be the most straightforward to handle.

Originally posted by Velociryx
'bout the only race I feel comfortable sabre dancing with would be the Hydrans and Plasma chuckers. Klingons have better arcs, so that's out, but they can't take a punch, and lots of phasers or no, they can't stop all the drones AND do significant damage to a pretty sturdy Kzin ship. Gorn ships are fun to fight...can't turn worth a crap and, though they have power and LOTS of shuttles, I never use my drones on them 'cept for the kill. Roms are sneaky, but that applies to Roms fighting anyone...annoying opponents@ LOL

The Klingons also have a better turn mode, and better shields after all the B and K refits. They also get P-1's with the K refit. Not to mention better drone controls and ADD. You're right, though, Klingon ships are flimpsy, once they start taking internals they'd better off running away.

Plama races got a lot better after they get the type-F plamas which cost them no power to hold. Also the downloading rules help. Still as I said before drone races have the advantage facing plama races.

Roms aren't easy to play properly. Cloaking can't save your hide if you aren't careful

Originally posted by Velociryx
Feds are actually not too bad to deal with. If they overload torps, just stay out of range and dance them to death...if they standard/prox load, wait till they fire, and charge in.

Wait till somebody pulls a Kuafman Retrograde on you

Originally posted by Velociryx
Phaser ones are awesome things, but many, if not most will have to be used on drones (cos you're right, most Kzin players never launch their drones in a single impulse, specifically to avoid the easy t-bomb....shotgun racks, a scatterpack (and even better, a scatter AND a shatterpack!) load out, and with many ships having double control, the Kzin can lure out the WW, nix it, and field so many drones that the opponent can't cope.

There are many counter to this. For example, the Fed player can fake a WW launch. Since they have tons of shuttles they can afford to lose some. Anyway, if you think he's launching WW and kill the first shuttle that comes out with your long range disruptors, watch out. Also, Feds have drones that can take out your drones and your shuttles. Scatterpacks can be zapped by prox photon fire. Since Kzinti ships generally are short on shuttles you can't pull some of the stunts like the Feds.

Originally posted by Velociryx
Ahhh, that's why I love small ship actions with the Kzin. Your average frigate/destroyer can MAYBE stop 6 drones, firing most if not all weapons at them. 2-3 shuttles max. And a single drone hit will wreck, if not bring down a facing shield.

That depends what kinds of small ships. A fully loaded Kzin FF generally won't face FF of another race due to point problems in the "build your own fleet" scenario. You better watch out for the War destroyers of other races, particularly the Klingon D5, which is quite a nasty piece of work. Have you seen the D5A in the Commander's Edition? Downright sick - they simply replaced the probe launcher with an SFG

Three Kzin Frigates then, could *easily* field 24 drones--having another six at the ready, for the same turn--(and if even one of those had double control, control them all), post WW, which would be enough to implode (or nearly so) a pair of DD's.

Enough, if you play them properly, that is.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by ravagon
Actually I'm still going by the old Vol 1-3. In this part of the world it seems to take a loooong time to get a hold of all of the parts for something like this so I generally stick with what I've got until/unless I can get everything at once.

Why don't you check on Amarillo Design Bereau's website? Maybe they have links on mail order companies?

When you said Vol 1-3 I assume you meant the Commander's Edition, not the Designer's edition, which happens to be in 3 volumes?

[Urban Ranger]

Hey Vel,

This is for you. It's on the official SFB website.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by ravagon
I remember one matchup against a HB/Fus combination cruiser type (forgotten the name of this one )

That's probably a Lord Bishop or a Lord Marshall. The Overlord is Hydran's BCH (heavy battlecrusier), and Lord Commander doesn't have hellbores.

[Khan Singh]

Ah. SFB. Well do I remember my epic battle of Invincible, Macarthur and their fleets against the deadly menace of two Andromedan Dominators. I managed to lose Macarthur, but after their point blank encounter with a Federation fighter squadron and a few turns of Invincible's disrupters, those two Dominators will not be conquering our galaxy.

But that was back when I was hard-core. Now I count myself lucky if I can finish a hand of mah-jong in an evening. Sleep is just so much more attractive now.