So, what game(s) are worth of Yin's praise?

[sgsmitty]

Having ran into several of Yin's postings throughout these forums it is obvious he dislikes Civ3. Although at first I thought he liked it based upon his review?
Anyway, I digress. The question is, what game (RTS or TBS) does Yin like, if any? Empire Earth, Civ2, SMAC, etc.
I ask simply because he is so opinionated (not a bad thing) and he seems to have a desire to be heard.

Run with it.....



Just curious
Smitty

[yin26]

LOL! Well, I'm not sure how long this thread will stay open, but I'll try to make it Civ3 focussed. Let me restate a few Civ things:

Civ3 is quite fun for the first few games ... mainly because you are still learning stuff and don't understand things fully enough to criticize them more squarely. But around the 4th game, I noticed something: I was moving, one by one, dozens of workers and scores of military units each turn in the most innane and unfun manner you can possibly imagine. So as I got deeper and deeper into a long game, I found myself thinking I was working out in the gym: "O.K., man, just 300 more clicks to get to something interesting." But, Lord, I couldn't stand the tedium any longer.

Now I could have withstood the tedium if, on the other side of all that, there was something satisfying to reward my physical (yes, physical, since very little thinking is required in Civ3) effort. But what do I get? I get a tech progression that has been artificially capped NO MATTER how much I pour into research. This is, of course, to keep the computer in the game. I get units from a previous age (or two!) that are given such strong defense bonuses, that I have to bring 10 tanks where 2 should have done. This, of course, to keep the computer in the game. And keep in mind, that its the 10 tanks I have to click one by one that's part of the first problem I mentioned. Heck, even the wonder movies are gone ... further depleting the sense that all your effort is worth all that much.

Then the bugs kick in just as you are really trying to give the game a chance and tell yourself: "Well, a game doesn't have to be fun every minute ... or every hour you play, does it? I mean, history is serious business. I should go through some pain, right?"

By why? When you want to strip paint off the side of your house, it's painful enough to do it with well designed tools. With Civ3, it's like trying to strip off that paint with your teeth and fingernails, and in the end, the job just looks ugly.

So. There's that.

The games I'm currently playing and enjoy are:

• Europa Universalis: The sequel is out, too, but I haven't bought it just yet. If you love history and feeling that you need to make intelligent decisions, this is your game. Now I should say that I was initially VERY turned off by this game as it had a lot of up front understanding that had to take place. But this is the difference between EU and Civ3: In Civ, you understand it immediately and get bored just as fast. In EU, you need some time to learn all the intricacies and then have hours and hours and hours of solid gameplay ahead of you. And from what I have read, EU2 is even much better than EU! And Paradox, the developer, is simply AWESOME at giving players the patches and support they ask for. Honestly. They aren't like these arrogant (and quiet) Firaxis 'accept that our software has bugs because we know you like bugs' mysteries or those brain-dead Infogrames low-lifes. Got a good idea or an important complaint? You'll be heard, and the game might well change within a few weeks as a result.
• SpaceEmpires4: Wow, you talk about a game MEANT to be modded. The makers of that game are also stunningly aware that it is the gaming *community* that nourishes and makes a game a success. And here's another company dedicated to 100% support. Now, SE4 (or EU for that matter) will NOT impress you with eye candy. In fact, the graphics and sounds rather suck, to be honest. But the gameplay is really deep and fascinating. Makes those 3D leader heads bobbing around in Civ3 look like exactly what they are: Totally worthless pieces of garbage coded in place of meaningful gameplay.
• Max Payne: A first person shooter. Nothing too terribly intelligent about the gameplay itself, but boy is it fun and just full of style! When you switch to slow-motion mode and fly through a doorway in Matrix-style, able to see individual bullets flying around and to vortex back into real time and find yourself standing over a room you've completely wreck like some sort of un-godly killing machine. What can I say. After a few games of EU and SE4, it's a thrilling release. The game is also just plain funny. Last night as my character (Max Payne) got in an elevator, this horrendous elevator music chimed on. Just to be funny, I shot the speakers on the elevator cieling pretending to blow out the music ... in fact, it did! Blue sparks and a buzzing sound were all that was left as I then quietly made my way up to the third floor for more entertaining carnage. Very fun.
• Chessmaster 8000: Let's face it, sometimes you want an old-school thinking man's game. Chessmaster is it. Whenever I feel like being truly humbled by an AI, I go up against the Chessmaster level and just get my ass completely kicked. Excellent.
• DXBall2: The best 'breakout' game ever made! Yes, it's true. Sometimes I don't want to think or have a fast hearbeat at all when I play a game. I want to be brain dead AND entertained. DXBall is your game. I've had it on my computer in one form or another for at least 5 years ... probably much longer than that.

So with those games on my computer, I have a great mix of some excellent stuff that exactly matches my mood at any given time. And with Civ3 off the hard drive, I'm searching for another great one. I'll let you know when I expand the list.

Thanks for asking.

[yin26]

Ah, how could I forget!? I'm waiting for:

MASTER OF ORION 3!!!

Yeah, baby!

[Strollen]

Europa Universalis

I agree really interesting game, and heck of history lesson but.
Talk about a micromanagement nightmare. The game is Real time but is pausable, however the scale is a month every few minutes, and there are 300+ years. It was taking me days to get past the first 100+ years.

Now you can speed it up but than you risk spending all time fighting the big battles in europe, and forget to move your explorers (which means than end up dying at sea along with their fleet) or upgrading your colonies. The AI is nothing to write home about either.

A game that could take some lessons from Civ about automated explorers, govenors and build queues.

Europa II sounds a bit better but didn't sound like it fixed the micromanagement problems.

Space Empire IV
I sure this is the game that many in this community wish Civ III was. Every possible feature you could hope for. I am sure they took seriously the vast comments from the fans of Space Empire III. Unfortunately what they end up with was a kitchen filled with every possible convience. Unfortunately the cook (AI) isn't capable of boiling water much less using any of the cool things, like fully customizable, high tech mines.

I am so glad that the CIV3 only implemented 10% of the features requested by this forum.

No comment on the others although I'm sure Chessmaster can beat the pants of even though it probably doesn't support a scripting language, (if P-K4 than N-QB3, if N-KB3 than P-Q4...) or a scenario editor.

Like Yin, I am looking forward to Moo3

[Shiva]

Originally posted by yin26 [*]SpaceEmpires4: Wow, you talk about a game MEANT to be modded. The makers of that game are also stunningly aware that it is the gaming *community* that nourishes and makes a game a success. And here's another company dedicated to 100% support. Now, SE4 (or EU for that matter) will NOT impress you with eye candy. In fact, the graphics and sounds rather suck, to be honest. But the gameplay is really deep and fascinating. Makes those 3D leader heads bobbing around in Civ3 look like exactly what they are: Totally worthless pieces of garbage coded in place of meaningful gameplay.

Add to that the fact that it is very very simple to mod and has a very large fan base that are modding it. Great game. As for the AI it is getting better with every patch and some of the mods out there help also.

[Strollen]

Originally posted by Shiva


Add to that the fact that it is very very simple to mod and has a very large fan base that are modding it. Great game. As for the AI it is getting better with every patch and some of the mods out there help also.

Well I suffer through the first four patches, and I'm pretty sure that both of my cats (even the dumb one) would have a good chance of beating the computer. For grins I did nothing for 100 turns (wanted to see what some technonlogy did) and I was still kicking the computers but. Try doing nothing in Civ3 for a hundred turns and see what happen.

It shouldn't take more than one patch for moderately challenging game, and while modding is nice, it is really icing on the cake, it isn't a substitute for a good game.

[yin26]

Well, the latest patch is at 1.49! Also, try the TDM mod if you haven't already.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Strollen
Well I suffer through the first four patches, and I'm pretty sure that both of my cats (even the dumb one) would have a good chance of beating the computer. For grins I did nothing for 100 turns (wanted to see what some technonlogy did) and I was still kicking the computers but. Try doing nothing in Civ3 for a hundred turns and see what happen.

As I said the AI has is better each patch and seeing as how you havnt played it since the fourth patch I'm pretty sure you dont know what your talking about. Perhaps before you open your mouth to dis how it is now you should try how it is now, no? It also depends on the races. The stock ones AI's were not very well made. They have been fixed and a lot more races have been added.

As for:

Originally posted by Strollen
It shouldn't take more than one patch for moderately challenging game, and while modding is nice, it is really icing on the cake, it isn't a substitute for a good game.

You must not have played Moo2 then or did you give up on it after the first patch?

Sorry, but SE4 is a very good game.

[sgsmitty]

Great input guys! Thanks. I have not tried Europa Universalis but may look into it.
I guess since no one has mentioned Empire Earth that it must be lacking?
As for SE4, well I actually have played and bought SEIII but found the AI very poor. I never have really tried SE4. Maybe the demo someday.
As for MOO3, yes I await with great anticipation. I loved MOO and MOO2 greatly. I do fear that MOO3 will not live up to everyone's expections as CIV3 seems to have failed to do.

Smitty

[yin26]

Ah. Empire Earth. I forgot that is also loaded on my machine! Great game! I will say it's very intense and geared (so it seems) toward the hardcore RTS crowd. But if you enjoy intense RTS, I think it has several things to recommend over AoK ... except to say the battles seem to take much longer to resolve. But if time is not an issue, excellent game!

Personally, I have too much going on at home to really play much RTS these days, so you can see from my games listed above that I tend to focus on deep games that I can play at a slower pace. Ahhh, getting old...

[korn469]

SpaceEmpires4: Wow, you talk about a game MEANT to be modded. The makers of that game are also stunningly aware that it is the gaming *community* that nourishes and makes a game a success. And here's another company dedicated to 100% support. Now, SE4 (or EU for that matter) will NOT impress you with eye candy. In fact, the graphics and sounds rather suck, to be honest. But the gameplay is really deep and fascinating. Makes those 3D leader heads bobbing around in Civ3 look like exactly what they are: Totally worthless pieces of garbage coded in place of meaningful gameplay.

yin i played the SE3 demo back in late 1998 and i lost many nights of sleep because of it, and i followed the development of SE4 since it was first announced, but i never bought the game because it was just lacking something...certainly not in units, SE4 probably has the widest variety of units in a game, and certainly not because you can't mod virtually all areas included in the game...but it lacked things like atrocities and advanced diplomacy, things like governments and a real resource system

i didn't expect eye candy from this game, nor did that have any effect on me, it was just in the other parts of the game, the details of what makes a game completely emersive and what makes a game repetitive...and there was just something repetitive to me in SE4, i actually think i had more fun playing SE3

if they ever make an SE5 here is what it would take to earn the 40 or 50 bucks from me

*a government system
*much improved diplomacy
*allow editing of components
*more complex race relations
*better in game story occurances
*a much improved resource system
*better internal diplomacy
*a little more personality

yes i think its a good game, but its not work 40 dollars to me right now

i am planning on getting EU2 for christmas (even if it is one of those to me/from me presents ) and i am kind of looking forward to MoO3...i'm cautious about that one it looks promising but the event engine and comis karma make me VERY warry of this game

one game i am looking forward to is WarCraft 3, because every single blizzard game i have ever played has has a sense of grandeur that comes from the cut scense, the polish, the balance, and the emphasis on fun but other than that i don't really have many games on the horizon that i am pysched about

how about your all time favorite game?

i would have to say that mine is Genghis Khan for the original nintendo, althought it is rudimentry compared to modern games (i mean it is a strategy game for a console released back in 1989 i think) it had all of the qualities i love in a game, and if they ever built a game based on its best features then i would be in gamers heaven

[Mannamagnus]

The most addictive game ever: Snood!

[Strollen]

I really don't want to pick on SEIV, since it was done by a couple of guys on a shoestring. It isn't a half bad game, and Shiva very well maybe right and the AI is acceptable now.

I went back and looked at at my SEIV directory 5 downloads, latest version was 1.27 so a mere 25 patches (they skipped a couple of numbers). I also download Mod pack 1.60 and several other Mods. I spent a lot of time trying to play this game because it certainly had potential.


Now Yin, tells us that SEIV is a worthy game but Civ3 isn't. SEIV AI is alledgely good after only 40+ patchs and about one year.
Civ3 AI was good right out of the box.
Civ3 has a couple of serious bugs, SEIV had a lot.
SEIV is an evolutionary game incorporate almost all of the suggestion of space 4x games.
Civ3 is a evolutionary game with a couple of interesting features (culture, resources), building on the Civ franchises
Now I can make the same arguement about EU that I made about SEIV. In order to get a playable game you need to download a number of patches, and play a heavily modified user created campaign game.

It seems me that Yin is hold Firaxis to an extraordinary high standard. He did the same thing with regard to SMAC. I wonder if Yin doesn't have some vendenta against Firaxis that he isn't talking about.

At the end of the day I want to play a game right out of the box. I am realistic enough to realize it might require downloaded a patch or two. If it is really good game, I'll download an user designed enhancement. However, every minute I spend downloading/installing a patch/mod for a game, is at best a minor annoyance and at worse a royal pain in the A*s.

Although EU, and SEIV are fundamentally good games they require huge investment in time to keep up with the patches, user mods etc. While part of me admires the developers for being so willing to support the games, a large part me is PO at there lack of discipline for putting out a finished product. There is something fundamental wrong about Yin using as a role model a game that required 45+ patches, and the work of the user community.

Civ3 isn't a highly polished game, but it is far from the buggy incomplete mess that some have portrayed (not necessarily Yin).
The scenario, mod, and MP crowd need to understand that while they may enjoy tinkering with games, a huge percentage of gamers simply want to play them.

[Jeje2]

Strollen: You have good point. Many good games have needed some patching.


I too liked EU and specially I liked the IGC, made by the fancore.

But a game I also played like crazy and that didin't need that many patches IIRC was Quake (Part I - QII&QIII it just get's to be a who's got the best CPU.)

Now Queake as FPS, oh boy my lefthand fingers hurt all the time back then. Quake was also about gameplay, not about how good you&surroundings feel. (Played in a clan for a few years too.) I still think that Quake is the best MP ever, also the very different mods were entertaining. I loved Team Fortress on my Quake. (*) Ever try Quake, Yin?

But on both EU and QuakeI I finally got toally bored with and sold my copies. (I do wait for EU2 with great expectations)

[yin26]

Like I've said, I'm willing to see what Civ3 will look like in a year ... and I didn't see SE4 until 1.49, so I can't comment on what it was like upon release.

Korn: I hear ya. Fair enough.

Jeje: Quake came around during a busy time in my life. I played it and liked it but never got 'into it,' if you know my meaning. Was just too busy at the time.