Best CRPG tht you've ever played

[Rex Little]

Ultima III
Ultima IV
Dark Sun 1

[Buck Birdseed]

As an "Action RPG" guy, only Sword of Mana and Chrono Trigger have ever really captured my imagnation. Neither is really an RPG game as such, but then I hate the sort of over-complex story-destroying nonsense that most RPGs consist of. Simplicity, few if any deaths (at least against non-bosses), driving story and interesting level design keep me interested...

I always thought of the non-action RPG as the Adventure Game's poor, inarticulate cousin from the countryside. It's basically like an Adventure Game with a poorer story, crap graphics, ill-written dialogue, no sense of humour and lots of boring death/action sequences getting in the way of what's actually happening.

[Dis]

I see a lot of dislike against class based systems. Why is that? It has its downpoints, but so does skill based systems.

I admit I like the classes in A D&D (with a few exceptions). That was their strong point. In fact, it was one of the few things of AD & D I liked.

Each system has its pros and cons. I like to play both types. It is not a major factor that determines if I like a rpg.

[Moral Hazard]

Snapcase:

The major advantage of RPG over an adventure game is the main character becomes you rather than you taking on the role of the main character. I'm not sure if what I said was clear but what I mean is that in a good RPG, your personality and what you want to be (the whole point of statistics in my opinion) is inferred on the main character, who with out you has no character.

In truth I've played scant few adventure games. But what I've played your character is already determined as is his path. For example you can hardly play The Longest Journey as an obstinate ass, who enjoys insulting every one who crosses his path, but this option is open in many good role playing games.. The most vexing thing about adventures is that to accomplish a task you have to do it a certain way. Where as in a good RPG you will often have a several solutions, in a really good one it allows for a logical emergent solution ( one not thought of by the designer). Not only does it offer different solutions to problems but the solution you chose can have effects later in the game; allowing an RPG to be both a good story teller and listener. The Adventure game is merely a good story teller (often a damn good one) but it’s his story and you merely follow it having very little control over the outcome or the soul of the main character.

Not all RPG's are this way, but I feel that it’s the only genre where you actually control your destiny.

[Moral Hazard]

Dissident:

Although classes don't kill a game for me at all. I can't think of any advantages they possess which couldn't be replaced with perks and traits.

[Vlad Antlerkov]

Here's my list (in no particular order):

Final Fantasy VI
Secret of Mana
Ogre Battle
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy V (though they did a bad job of translating it for FF Anthology)
Final Fantasy IV

[Buck Birdseed]

Moral: I would largely agree- for a pen and paper RPG. A CRPG never offers the same opportunities for character expansion nor in fact social interaction as a pen-and-paper game does. The fact that it has to be kept open means that the story irrevocably suffers, as does almost all charactersiation. You just don't get interesting characters in a CRPG. As your imagination, open in a pen-and-paper game, gets restricted to what's essentially going to be two or three linear paths (or even worse, one with each "mistake" leading to instant death or worse, "game killing" meaning you cannot progress even though you're allowed to continue playing), what a game like Ultima ends up as is a badly-written old-skool (ie. Instant Death) Adventure Game with half-hearted action elements thrown in. The actual "game" (except for following the usually stale and clichéd plots slavishly) is reduced to being effective in inventory management.

Example: I recently tried the Icewind Dale demo. After turging through the first village, engaging in really stupid conversations through a convulted interface, I equip my weapons I bought at random, painstakingly take my group of faceless nobodies through the only exit available and immediately get slaughtered by the weakest kind of enemy within seconds. No indication is given as to what I did wrong, possibly some kind of group "stance" thing. I quit and uninstall. That just about sums up my "enjoyment" of this type of thing.

Basically, the CRPG is like a really old adventure game full of instant deaths and "game killing" mistakes, with pointless, anal pseudo-action sequences drawing the attention away from the actual story/puzzles, with faceless characters that lazy game designers expect you to provide the personality for yourselves in your head. It's certainly not expressed in the game.

[Father Beast]

in all my experience, nothing captures my interest as did The Bard's Tale.

it was so much fun. and all those little jokes in the manual were a great "hook" before playing.

"expect to get killed a lot. especially with level 1 characters. especially when just walking from the adventurer's guild to the armor shop with brand new characters."

"this manual is not protected by magic shields or air armor. Don't let your dog eat it."

I made parties full of people named after characters in books. and nothing quite equals opening the door on the 3rd level of the tower and facing "99 berzerkers, 99 berzerkers, 99 berzerkers, and 99 berzerkers."

dang, i got to go back and play again, pc speaker noise or no.

[Moral Hazard]

Snapcase:

First let me say your obviously looking for an adventure game when you play an RPG, and you'll never find it.

I assume your speaking of Ultima IX, because your description of it is quite accurate. It was a bad adventure game, with a pathetic action element, built on even more pathetic engine. I only got as far as Buccaneers Den before giving up on it. As far as I could tell the plot was as linear as any adventure.

Icewind Dale I can't really comment on it since I've never played it but I will anyway. It was designed for the Diablo player, who loves hack and slash. The plot and the characters were an after thought.

Concerning 'game killing' mistakes. That's nothing short of bad game design; unless of course you decide to exterminate an entire town (an enjoyable past time of mine in Ultima VII), in which case you expect the game not to continue meanifully; As Iolo put it 'I don't think we should be doing this Avatar') .

Instant death is often the logical conclusion to a players illogical action, like attacking an important NPC without provocation.

To the meat of the discussion. Non-Linearity and chosing your own destiny. I'm not talking about two or three linear paths, but more along the lines of Fallout 1 and 2, which had about 20 different ending sequences (ok, ok it was a bunch of parts which changed according to your actions in particular towns). But the ultimate end isn't even the point, the fact that almost every sub-quest had two or more conclusions, which would effect how NPC treated you thru out the game world is. Say you killed off somebody in one town his brothers might come looking for you etc. Sometimes the sub-quests contribute to the GECK quest, but often not. Hell you can skip all these towns and grab the GECK almost immediately (If you stumble in the right direction for long enough), so you weren't really confined. I hope that explains what I mean by non-linearity. Fallout of course is one in a hundred.

I started by saying that you'd never find an adventure (story) in an RPG, but you probably will in Planescape. Even though your character is your own, your past lives are nicely detailed as you discover them through out the game. Not to mention several of your potential party member have deep character, also discovered as the game unfolds. The story is quite good also, on par with most adventure games.

[loinburger]

I play CRPG's more for the story than for the non-linearity; why else would I even bother with the Final Fantasy series? My only foray into pen-and-paper RPG's featured a DM who created adventures far more linear than any CRPG I've ever played, although they were adventures without any sort of depth and which held my interest for about a week (at which point I called it quits).

Me: "The merchant isn't guarded, eh? I'm going to pickpocket him."

DM: "You can't do that, he's the next adventure hook."

Me: "I'm behind him and the area is shadowy, but if I do get caught, then I can outrun him and you can make a new adventure hook. I attempt to pickpocket the merchant."

DM: "You fail."

Me: "Hey, you didn't even roll the dice."

DM: "The merchant was protected by the God of Merchants, so you automatically fail. The God of Merchants kills you. Roll for a new character."

Me: "Bugger off."

Why bother? Non-linearity isn't a requirement for an enjoyable roleplaying experience, but story is. A good CRPG beats an incompetent DM any day.

[Dis]

lol

sounds like some of my ad&d games.

I admit being a DM I had to create god like enchantments to protect things and people.

But my friends, specifically my best friend had a real liberal interpretation of the spells. Especially cleric spells. And he always talked me into them (I wasn't a very good DM ). That was the most powerful cleric I ever seen!

[History049]

Baldur's Gate I + II

[Master Marcus]

old: Shining in the Darkness (Genesis) is the most memorable console RPG I ever played ( 10 years ago ).

recent: Skies of Arcadia ( Dreamcast ): a "hybrid" masterpiece.

I scarcely play PC RPGs....don't ask me why. Always devoted my playing time on PC for TBS, and sometimes RTS.

[Sliparac]

Fallout I - II
Baldur's Gate I - II
Planescape Torment

Possibly Arcanum

and....

Ultima Online!

(well, it's great fun to play it on a free, RP-only shard)

[History049]

Everquest was ok but addicting