Oh No! Not another Baldur's Gate thread!

[Drogue]

Elminster's a pure mage, according to the manual, IIRC. Level 20 something IIRC

Just got to the Candlekeep maze part. Soon will have the last couple of tomes and on to chapter 7

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Drogue

As is the PC. A demi-God, sent by the Gods.

He isn't sent by the gods, he's a god-spawn. He inherited some godly powers, but he certainly isn't given power by any god. The universe of Tolkein and D&D work pretty differently, anyways.

But since you mention Elminster, he's 'sent by the gods'. (The chosen of Mystra) and is (I assume) rewarded favors by her. Also, aside from being a high level mage, he has some epic class levels aswell. What, I can't tell you, since I don't actually know anything about that stuff.

[Dis]

get this Lord of the Rings crap out of the Baldur's Gate thread

[Jamski]

Elminster's a pure mage, according to the manual, IIRC. Level 20 something IIRC

They changed this in 3rd Edition sourcebooks to be more like the Elminister in the stories. He gets Clerical abilites from Mystra (untill she gets killed)

-Jam

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by General Ludd

He isn't sent by the gods, he's a god-spawn. He inherited some godly powers, but he certainly isn't given power by any god. The universe of Tolkein and D&D work pretty differently, anyways.

Spot on, so no cleric levels.

[Jamski]

He's talking about the PC in BG, not Gandalf/Elminister

-Jam

[DrSpike]

Sorry, clumsy quoting. The last bit was what I wanted.

[General Ludd]

Well... are we talking simply about what Gandalf would be in D&D terms, or what he would be if thrown into D&D universe? If it's the latter, well, that's a bit too geeky for me.

[DrSpike]

You have to pick D&D classes to reflect the LotR characters. Jamski suggested Fighter/Cleric/Mage, which began the futile and entirely pointless argument.

[General Ludd]

Yes, but reflect them as they where in the story, or reflect them in scenario where they are taken out of their world and put into the D&D universe?

The godly powers Gandalf has in Tolkein's writing can only be represented by clerical abilities in D&D rules.

[DrSpike]

Well I meant the former, but Jamski presumably meant the latter. So we all agree?

[Jamski]

Ok, let's agree to agree

So... building my six-person party...

Gandalf : Fighter-->Mage or Fighter/Mage/Cleric in 2nd ed rules
Fighter4/Sorceror x/Cleric x in 3rd ed rules? using staff/longsword
Aragon : Ranger or Fighter/Ranger using bow/longsword
Gimli : Dwarf fighter - no question - using axes
Legolas : Elf Archer Kit in 2nd Ed or Arcane Archer in 3rd Edition using bows.
Pippin : Halfling Fighter/Thief using shortswords
And I'd really like a proper cleric in the party
But another Halfling will have to do

-Jam

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Drogue
I don't think Gandalf is. He's a high level mage, so is quite good with a staff, but I wouldn't call him a fighter.

Also, with the two hobbits, I was thinking of Merrin and Pippin, when Frodo and Sam have gone off, and Boromir is dead. That way it's 6. However Pippin (I think) could well be a fighter thief, in that he fights alongside the shieldmaiden in RotK. However Merrin does seem like complete wuss.

Merry (short for Meriadoc) Brandybuck is the one who fights beside Eowyn in Return of the King. Arguably, based on the book (the movies are NOT Tolkien canon) his attack on the witch-king is more or less a backstab - the witch king is facing Eowyn, about to kill her, and Merry strikes him from behind - so that would be compatible with thief skills. He is nonetheless honored as a warrior, since thief has more conventional meaning in Tolkien than in DnD.

Pippin (Peregrin) Took apparently fights honorably enough in the ranks of Gondor in the last battle at the gates of Mordor, but with no particular effect. Given his sneaking around to get the palantir, id say hes more thief like than Merry, though Merry does pretty well acting stealthily in the episode in Bree.

All in all Id say make Merry fighter/thief and make Pippin pure thief.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jamski
Ok, let's agree to agree

So... building my six-person party...

Gandalf : Fighter-->Mage or Fighter/Mage/Cleric in 2nd ed rules
Fighter4/Sorceror x/Cleric x in 3rd ed rules? using staff/longsword
Aragon : Ranger or Fighter/Ranger using bow/longsword
Gimli : Dwarf fighter - no question - using axes
Legolas : Elf Archer Kit in 2nd Ed or Arcane Archer in 3rd Edition using bows.
Pippin : Halfling Fighter/Thief using shortswords
And I'd really like a proper cleric in the party
But another Halfling will have to do

-Jam

Better apporiximation to a proper cleric would be a senior Elf Lord like Glorfindel, or even Elrond. It was apparently Elronds intention to send two such, in place of Merry and Pippin - apparently Elrond was thinking along the same lines as Jamski, and maybe Tolkiens world isnt THAT different from DnD. But Frodos cousins insisted on going along, and Gandalf supported them, insisting loyalty and friendship would be more important than sheer power. Thus it would seem like Tolkien IS quite different from the BG plot, at least.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jamski


He is clearly sent by the gods of Middle Earth, and is perhaps a minor god himself.

To clarify. While in LOTR the Valar seem to be gods, the Silm to some extent reconciles the "paganness" of LOTR with Tolkiens own (Christian) monotheism. The One, the creator of the world and of men and elves, is Iluvatar (Il = El = God in Hebrew, Vatar = Father). The Valar emerged directly out of the thought of Iluvatar, rather than being "created" one of the greatest of the Valar, Menelkor, rebelled and became Morgoth. Thus the Valar seem like the top rank of angels in Judeo-Christian mythology, and the fundamental mythos is that described in Miltons Paradise Lost.

Gandalf is a Maia, one of the beings created from Iluvatars thought who were lower than the Valar - thus parallel to the lower ranks of angels.

All of the wizards (Istari in Elvish) are Maia - as also are the Balrogs, and also Sauron himself (he started as number 2 to Morgoth) The mother of Luthien Tinuviel was a Maia who married an Elvish king, so there is Maia "blood" in both Elrond and Aragorn. (note parallels to Greek and Germanic mythology, where heroes are of partial divine blood)