D&d

[LDiCesare]

Yes, it's sad to see so many pen and paper games were devised to be better than D&D and see the CRPGs use those crappy rules. Those which don't (Fallout, Morrowind, Arcanum...) are usually way better than the D&D games.

[rah]

Re: D&d

Originally posted by Space05us
also what does the 'A' in AD&D stand for?

Advanced.

Pen and paper was more imaginative since magic could be more creative and certain actions are hard to quantify with a program. (i.e, a player attempted a close portal spell on a creatures heart valve hoping to induce a heart attack) A good game master made for a great game.

On the other side, computers are great record keepers. Battling 150 orcs is a lot easier with computers keeping track.

But no matter how much easier it made it, it never had quite the same flavor.

[Jamski]

Close portal was ALWAYS cast on the party's idiot - on his anus of course

-Jam

[Space05us]

(i.e, a player attempted a close portal spell on a creatures heart valve hoping to induce a heart attack)

I wanna play!

[LDiCesare]

(i.e, a player attempted a close portal spell on a creatures heart valve hoping to induce a heart attack)

That's more abuse than imagination imho. As a DM, I'd never let that one pass (unless maybe if you could see the valve). Uses of spells like silence to make your spellcaster more stealthy than the party thief are, in fact, possible in pen and paper, and make me cry when I play CRPGs where such things are hard to come by (except maybe in nethack where you can decode to polymorph into a leprechaun for the sole purpose of not paying a sucubus after she seduces you and other weird things).

[Kropotkin]

I really like the good old pen and paper role-playing. It's much better than any computer game will be, maybe not forever but for a long time, even with multiplayer. The D&D system itself -even if it was revolutionary for its time - quickly turned out to be an inferior system. Here in Sweden there where a few games that was (and is) imho much better and more 'realistic'.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Here in Sweden there where a few games that was (and is) imho much better and more 'realistic'.

As LDiCesare said, most systems that came out after AD&D are better designed. Even Warhammer Fantasy is.

[Zero]

I played it once and I didnt like it. I kept trying to do silly stuff and the guy next to me kept telling me i couldnt do anything.

[rah]

I did force the player to touch the chest to cast that spell. he was almost killed on the attack since he had no defenses.

[centrifuge]

out of curiosity, since I've never played any pen and paper RPGs outside of Ad&D, what games have improved it? ...and in what ways are they better?

[Kropotkin]

I don't really know that much about AD&D appart from computer games. Also, later games are of cource different from each other in many ways. However, one has to think about the back story to D&D. It was designed for games that was not much more than characters walking around in dungeons, killing stuff. For example the swedish clone of D&D - called Drakar och Demoner or DoD for short - removed a lot of the most stupid rules from D&D. You don't get more hitpoints just because you get better, hitpoints are determined by your characters constitution, not by her or his level. Also, there are no levels. The RPC gains experience in a number of different skills depending on how much they use or train them. Other changes in the core rules is the removal of such silly things as THAC0. I could go on, there's a lot of other changes. I just took a few from a game that I know very well. AD&D is a system that is much more suited for computer games than for pen and paper-games. AD&D is such a stiff and unflexible system. Well, at least if you have a DM that follows the rules. Everyone witch has played games like that for a while knows that a good game-session doesn't come from a DM that's following the rules to the letter. It's supposed to be a story with characters, not a game of probability.

[LDiCesare]

what games have improved it? ...and in what ways are they better?

What games? All. I mean it. All other RPGs are better than D&D because noone would have dared publish a game that couldn't compare to the standard.
Other games were better in many ways.
Mostly, almost all of them provided skills. This means in D&D if you were not a thief, you could not climb a wall. In all other games, you can. Same for picking locks, etc. A mage could try to learn using a sword and become remotely good at it. Personalization of characters was much better done (for instance Rolemaster and MERP allowed beckground options to make characters unique).
Social skills made charisma actually useful (persuasion, trading skills, ...).
The magic system also wanted lots of improvement: Mana or power points have been introduced, spells grouped in lists (Rolemaster) or been even more specific. Systems like Runequest or Stormbringer provided way more detailed and interesting magic systems.
Combat was increased with games like Rolemaster (very funny and deadly critical hits), or Runequest (localized wounds, no increase of hit points per level, critical hits too).
Other games improved by the settings and atmosphere (Call of Cthulluh, MERP, Paranoia...).

[Urban Ranger]

Also, as Krop mentioned, most other systems did away with classes, levels, hit points, armour class, the silly magic rules, the overabundance of magical items, and alignment (what a silly concept).

You gain experience by playing your character, not killing things (Rolemaster being a noted exception). If you play your character well, or do things cleverly, you gain bonuses. Experience points can be used to increase your skills in various things, and most systems allow for increases in attributes as well.

A lot of systems have interesting innovations. In Top Secret, you could lose attributes permanently by sustaining injuries, making combats very very bad. In Runequest, you cast battlemagic spells with Power - but you also resist magic with Power, creating an interesting dilemma.

[DarkCloud]

centrifuge's advice is good

Oh and if you do intend to buy it, don't expect to be able to buy 1 package and have the entire game. The game spans dozens of books, though not all are needed to play.

But all you really need to do is to have some sort of character generation program (free on the net) and you can get by even if you're the DM that's what I do. I don't own a single 3rd Edition book- I'm too cheap.

I had a few 2nd Edition books I picked up for 1/2 price and a first edition and a 1/2 price warhammer guide book and read through books and adventures at stores and ripped stories off the internet (for free) and free monsters on the net, and on the D&D sites... and my dungeons and dragons group admits that MY DMed adventures are more complete and intriguing and interesting than theirs (and they buy the books and use the generated adventures (sometimes))

I just make everything up.
D&D is a bounty of the mind

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I've even played myself alone in D&D,... it is possible
It's very easy to play single player- I'll give you a tutorial if you want one
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If you ever find a group- about 6 people is the right number... if you get over 7, then you have balance problems as they might be too general and able to hack down any problem you throw at them (unless you separate them... and if you do that too often, they might lose interest ) [people don't like to be 'out of the game']

I first bought a 1st Edition AD&D booklet in 1990/1 and have been playing with others (2nd Edition) in 1999... then (3rd Edition) 2001-present and in fact, next weekened, we're planning on getting together and finishing the story arc I've been working on for 9 DM sessions

--
and if all else fails, you can try internet D&D, they had an OffTopic game running a few months back

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out of curiosity, since I've never played any pen and paper RPGs outside of Ad&D, what games have improved it? ...and in what ways are they better?

In my D&D group, the game MAGE has been really popular It doesn't allow the character to pick classes- basically you level up skills through usage and 'create your own character'... i find it sort of interesting and think that it can be used to good effect

But basically I still prefer D&D... because it's too easy to die in mage because of the damages and the guns and the wounds issues...

and because of the realtive benefits of both systems, my D&D group has recently been trying to hybrid the two. We've gotten quite far and managed to create the basic character generation system and all the basics

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
D&D is a bounty of the mind
-
I've even played myself alone in D&D,... it is possible

Mental masturbation.