Playing cheap.

[Zero]

Interesting topic. Lot of people vary on defining what 'cheap' is. What does it mean to be playing cheap?

first of all.. cheat and cheap is different. cheat is gaining advantage by using something outside of gameplay system and cheap is abusing a system within gameplay. So no talking about cheating. Just cheap plays.

[General Ludd]

Basically just using annoying tactics. "zerg rush" is a good example.

[Zero]

why is zerg rush cheap? Rush in RTS is a serious commitment. You have to ruin your economy for the whole game just to shave off few extra seconds. There are plenty of anti-rush tactics out there. Otherwise everyone would rush( ) to learn how to play zergs.

What is annoying isnt cheap either. Isnt annoying an opponent part of the mind game as any other? (pressuring/forcing a move/making them guess etc)

[rah]

Rehoming caravans in CIVII. Obviously the developers didn't want you to do it since they took the extra step and removed the option to do it from one panel, but overlooked that it could be done from another panel. Hence people still do it. And many people are so stubborn that they don't listen to people that say it's a cheap play.

Some rules sets in MP outlaw it. But it required a special mention.

[DrSpike]

In TFT cheap is elf going Beastmaster/Naga every fookin game.

[Zero]

Rah: good post. Glitch is on the greyline of whats cheap and not cheap IMO.

I think most ppl agree glitch that crashes or anything like that is downright nono in gaming community....

But most glitch i find it not cheap. Its unintentional. Thats true. But most glitches require practice and mastering to do it consistently. That and you need to be able to figure out the glitch. That takes some researching how games work etc. So if you can abuse the glitch, i give you thumbs up (for the most part)

If anyone knows Capcom v Snk 2, friggin just frame roll cancel glitch is cheap as hell (it basically makes you invulnerable for short time). True, It takes skill to do a just frame (1/60th of a timing), but gameplay gets reduced to just being able to perform that flawlessly like a robot..... jf roll cancel, attack, jf roll cancel attack....

It still isnt really "cheap" cause anybody has access to such option... but when glitches become too overpowering and has no countermeasures for it, it really kills strategy and gameplay IMO, and therfore should be considered cheap thing to do.

[Sarxis]

In FPS games, there's all kinds of 'cheap' tactics. Spawn camping; offense sniping; use of certain weapons in excess; etc.

Too many to name, and they vary from game to game. Sometimes its just players whining about getting PWND, but other times its just dishonorable play.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba
In FPS games, there's all kinds of 'cheap' tactics. Spawn camping; offense sniping; use of certain weapons in excess; etc.

Nah I disagree. Spawn camping isnt dishonroable play, but most FPS game has anti spawn camp measures. In Team Fortress for example, if you can beat the system and lob a nail grenade or mirv into spawn point... or enter thru the door and flush the room out before you get killed by automated defense system... , I think you deserve the kill.

In UT2K3, spawn camping is all too easy on deathmatch. But thats the point in that game. Nonstop action. I dont think its cheap cause in that game, ur supposed to be in action instantly at any moment.

Nor is offensive sniping cheap. Usually its camping mofos thats consdiered cheap. Thats not cheap either though...

Sometimes its just players whining about getting PWND, but other times its just dishonorable play.

agreed. But this thread is basically dicussing that. What do you think is the difference between thoe two lines is basically what we should be talking about.

In TFT cheap is elf going Beastmaster/Naga every fookin game.

they nerfed beastmaster. Still good though. Ive been hearing about new gossips on how dark ranger is the new queen biatch of creeping....

still not cheap though IMO. Best hero to choose cause its the most effective? yes. Cheap? I wouldnt go that far.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Zero
It still isnt really "cheap" cause anybody has access to such option... but when glitches become too overpowering and has no countermeasures for it, it really kills strategy and gameplay IMO, and therfore should be considered cheap thing to do.

[da_hal]

i think it is important to define cheap. imho, cheap is:

1. something that cannot be defended against, eg. drop hacks in diablo 2, cheese kills in sf2alpha+, etc.

2. only in multiplayer. by definition, something you do by yourself should not be "cheap."

3. takes all the strategy and boils it down to just 1-2 options. for example, the zerg rush requires specific anti-rush measures that eliminates other types of play.

4. is fully supported by the programmers. for example, in ultima 4, you can reboot the game if i goes bad, and "journey onward" from the previous save. in epyx' "rogue", however, save games are erased once loaded, and if you die, the character is gone, thus making backup copies of your save is 'cheap.' (although if done alone, it shouldn't be by rule 2.)

5. cannot be used as an excuse for stupidity or noobity. for example, in chess, the 4 move and 2 move checkmate is in just about every single book ever written, thus falling for it is not the fault of the doer, but the victim.

6. something that is generally regarded as 'cheap' is given de-facto immunity if used in defense of a more 'cheap' strategy. for example, in d2, a slow burizazon is considered a "cheap" build, thus a less "cheap" build built to kill them is not cheap when used for this situation. also, a marine rush when used vs a zerg rush.

7. does not exist in tournament or money play. just win baby.

feel free to discuss.

[Zero]

drspike: meh. fine. We're talking greyish borderline cheapness though. By the way, is there a counter for NE who goes with beastmaster creeping? (maybe hero rushing etc? beastmaster = horrible anti hero isnt it?)

Da hal:
1. Yeah drop hack is not a cheap, but cheat. cheese kill? you mean death thru block dmg? Thats not cheap at all. Or do you mean broken custom combo strings? That is almost on the borderline of cheapness, but sf community learned to deal with it and and didnt reduce the gameplay down to bare nothignness...

5. Absolutely!
6. No, in that case, none of the two are cheap in my view. Extremly good strat beating another extremly good strat? As long as they all have countermeasures it will eventually become a heavily biased rock paper scissor game noentheless... (thus balancing the system)

7. Evo 2003, this japanese guy named ino wins with pure jf roll cancel glitch. Yeah it wasnt banned for tourney play, but it reduced the game down to whether you can match him by being able to prove that you can do the glitch consistently as well and nothing else.

Doing something over and over again is fine, but in this case this glitch is so broken that there is no countermeasure, no risk no nothing except the fact you have to be able to time it PERFECTLY. This is also on the greish are IMO.

Same thing with maddogjin in T4 using Jin's "cheapness" to win... quite debatable (less so than cvs tho).

[Skanky Burns]

2. only in multiplayer. by definition, something you do by yourself should not be "cheap."

Disagree.
For example, in certain RTS games you can build walls to prevent enemy movement. A cheap tactic would be to have walls with a thin winding path through them that the ai will automatically follow, even though they will get killed trying to run all around your new wall maze. Cheap.

[Zero]

disagree.

Thats abusing/screwing around with dumb computers. Its not ur fault computers are dumb. Perhaps exploiting more could encourage better ai system and improve single player experience.

Anyways it dont matter whats cheap in single player IMO. you can cheat and no one would care (except you and your own honor or whatever), so why would anyone care if you play cheap.

[Skanky Burns]

I doubt if anyone would care about a SP player using cheap tactics. The tactics are cheap though, which is the point.

[Mr. President]

Re: Playing cheap.

Originally posted by Zero
What does it mean to be playing cheap?

In Magic, cheap is using a Platinum Angel ("You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game") or doing an infinite combo with a Wellwisher to gain 6,003 life.