Field Marshall Dunning calls for talks on future relations.

[Sheep]

Field Marshall Philip Dunning of the Armed republic of Sheepsta calls for talks with the Elected Monarch of Alecrast, Lord-Captain Archaic on the futures of their relations.

He has outlined a possible list of topics

1/ Cessation of the embargoes which are clearly illegal
2/ A possible non-aggression pact and a possible start of international trade between the two nations
3/A committance to no pre-emptive nuclear strikes
4/A possible re-entry of Sheepsta to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty
5/Recognition of both governments by both governments.

He has sent this via a televised message and awaits Alecrastian replies.

[Archaic]

[From the desk of the Monarch's Press Secetary, printed as an open letter to Field Marshall Philip Dunning, the illegitimate ruler of Sheepsta, in all major regional papers the next morning]

Alecrast does not negociate with racist, dangerous, religious fanatic terrorists as yourself, especially when they're illegal rulers of nations who refer to their populace as "human resources" and routinely execute political activists. There is no possibility of a settlement between our nation and such a regime, and any dream you may have had of such a thing is simply self delusion.

[Sheep]

An open letter to the people of the region from the Ruler of the Armed Republic of Sheepsta, Field Marshall Philip Dunning

The remarks of the Alecrastian offical against the Armed Republic, are undiplomatic, hostile and potential unstabalising in the region. It seems that Alecrast wishes for war. Sheepsta will not allow for this attempt to overthrow the rightful government of Sheepsta to occur. The multi-national companies really in control of Alecrast have gone too far.

The government of Sheepsta while concerned with keeping Sheepsta racially pure, is also purely secular. We execture political activists who threaten to undermine the nation, mainly those who have Alecrastian connections, as being tratiors to the Republic.

However have a look at Alecrast for a second.

The Commonwealth of Alecrast is a enormous, economically powerful nation, remarkable for its complete absence of social welfare.

The government of Alecrast while possesing one of the greatest economic foundations of this region do not spend it on their people. It is Sheepsta's welfare system that allows for the underprivledged not to feel the weight of capitalist policies. Indeed this is what National Socialism is about.

However it gets worse for the Alecrastian citizen.

either ruled by a small, efficient government or a conglomerate of multinational corporations; it's difficult to tell which.

The small efficent government as the UN calls it is headed by the 'Elected' Monarch, which is under dispute by Sheepstan scholars due to the fact that there has only ever been one 'election' for monarch, is in fact the pawns for massive multi-national companies that actually head Alecrast.

We have great intrest in Alecrast and hope our ehrm 'territory' continues to thrive economically. Alecrastian citizens are indeed good at Gambling

This was the CEO of Crown Casino a Mr. Jack Briggs. Mr. Briggs also has confirmed that his and three other nations actually run Alecrast, not Lord-Captain Archaic. Wether this is true or not is open to debate, but evidence seems to be in Crown Casino's favour thus far.

What is distrubing is that Alecrast has allowed this corporate takeover and has allowed deforistation among other issues to gain rampant heights. Alecrast is in fact a pariah when it comes to envrionmental control and its national animal, the furry is near extinct due to the mining of companies such as Nukes4U.

Last but not least we point the public towards the fact that Alecrast's rich/poor gap is detestable. Ranked 3 in the wrold, there are undoubtbly many who are forced to live below the pverty line, or in fact on the streets. Is this a better way? Sheepstans think not.

As we clearly still detest the current regime of Alecrast, we have been the morally correct in trying to bring about a settlement. However this recent refusal from Alecrast is another attempt to stall the growing economic might of Sheepsta.

Alecrast sparked this conflict with objection to Sheepstan policies, they continued this conflict by embargoeing the isaland quite ineffectivley and they still continue this conflict with refusing to talk to the Sheepstan government.

If they want a war so bad, perhaps its time you found someone a little smaller to pick on. If Sheepsta is attacked, if any trading vessels connected through Sheepsta by treaty are attacked, if any futher attempt to detsbalise Sheepsta is made, we will consider it a decleration of war on Alecrasts part and they will then know the full might of Sheepstan arms.

[Archaic]

Due to the amount of utter lies in this, I'll respond twice, first in OOC, then IC later, so I can clarify points for people.

Originally posted by Sheep
An open letter to the people of the region from the Ruler of the Armed Republic of Sheepsta, Field Marshall Philip Dunning

The remarks of the Alecrastian offical against the Armed Republic, are undiplomatic, hostile and potential unstabalising in the region. It seems that Alecrast wishes for war. Sheepsta will not allow for this attempt to overthrow the rightful government of Sheepsta to occur. The multi-national companies really in control of Alecrast have gone too far.

1) Your selling of Nuclear Weapons and Overthrow of the previous Sheepstan government are/were undiplomatic, hostile and potential unstabalising in the region.

2) Your continuing lies in things such as this are undiplomatic, hostile and potential unstabalising in the region.

3) You are not the rightful government of Sheepsta.

4) Multi-national companies don't control Alecrast.

Originally posted by Sheep
The government of Sheepsta while concerned with keeping Sheepsta racially pure, is also purely secular. We execture political activists who threaten to undermine the nation, mainly those who have Alecrastian connections, as being tratiors to the Republic.

1) The laws decreed at the time of your coup and since were emphatically non-secular, as they provided for the deportation of all non-Christian citizens and, later, resulted in the government favouring Catholics. In other words....you're lying.

2) You can say they have Alecrast connections as much as you want, but seeing as you haven't discussed anything with me about there being Activists in Sheepsta with Alecrast connections and getting my approval for it, that's either a lie, or if it was meant to be taken by everyone as a statement of fact and not propaganda, godmodding.

Originally posted by Sheep
However have a look at Alecrast for a second.

The Commonwealth of Alecrast is a enormous, economically powerful nation, remarkable for its complete absence of social welfare.

The government of Alecrast while possesing one of the greatest economic foundations of this region do not spend it on their people. It is Sheepsta's welfare system that allows for the underprivledged not to feel the weight of capitalist policies. Indeed this is what National Socialism is about.

1) You can get many other quotes at the top. Look at what I got when I opened by page today. It justifies my below statements.

The Commonwealth of Alecrast is a enormous, socially progressive nation, remarkable for its complete absence of social welfare

2) We have a privitized welfare system in some ways similar to what Japan has done in the past, whereby a company will provide welfare to the needy related to it (For example, they would pay old age pensions to their retired workers) as part of its social responsibilies. It's not state run however, nor is there laws actually forcing companies to do it (They do it because they want to. They've long since learnt the worth of acting ethically and responsibly).

3) If you didn't notice, our citizens were almost as happy as yours (And we've already given the explanation that your citizens were probably happy because they felt they were going to be freed from an opressive regime soon), so if they're so burdened, why are they so happy?

Originally posted by Sheep
However it gets worse for the Alecrastian citizen.

either ruled by a small, efficient government or a conglomerate of multinational corporations; it's difficult to tell which.

The small efficent government as the UN calls it is headed by the 'Elected' Monarch, which is under dispute by Sheepstan scholars due to the fact that there has only ever been one 'election' for monarch, is in fact the pawns for massive multi-national companies that actually head Alecrast.

1) What "Sheepstan scholars" say is irrelevant, given that they quite obviously have no knowledge of the situation.

2) While it is true that this "year" in the game world would mark the first election for monarch since the original one when the nation was created.

3) Elections were for a long time suspended because of the disaster with the attacks on Alecrast (Which you said OOC was an attack made by Sheepsta), where we needed a stable government. We have had elections since then, however we haven't had an election for the Monarch again, since that position is held for a rather long period of time, and is a seperate election than that for the council members.

4) The Monarch cannot act without popular approval. Indeed, the council can overrule the monarch. He's something between our Governor General and the Americian President in power. Thus, how often he's elected doesn't matter a great deal.

Originally posted by Sheep

We have great intrest in Alecrast and hope our ehrm 'territory' continues to thrive economically. Alecrastian citizens are indeed good at Gambling

This was the CEO of Crown Casino a Mr. Jack Briggs. Mr. Briggs also has confirmed that his and three other nations actually run Alecrast, not Lord-Captain Archaic. Wether this is true or not is open to debate, but evidence seems to be in Crown Casino's favour thus far.

1) Blantant godmodding on your part if it was meant to be taken as fact. You can't state things about my nation, or who runs it.

2) There is no "Crown Casino" in Alecrast, nor are any of the firms in Alecrast owned by any firm from nations you own, meaning you don't have any characters you can have make such statements, least of all this "Mr. Jack Briggs."

Originally posted by Sheep
What is distrubing is that Alecrast has allowed this corporate takeover and has allowed deforistation among other issues to gain rampant heights. Alecrast is in fact a pariah when it comes to envrionmental control and its national animal, the furry is near extinct due to the mining of companies such as Nukes4U.

1) There has been no corporate takeover

2) We haven't allowed Deforestation. If you've conveniently forgotten, the attacks on Alecrast by Sheepsta during the HSA incident and the "Chaos Wars" that occured directly before the formation of the Commonwealth of Alecrast are responsible for this. It's not our fault the plants can't grow because you contaminated the nation.

3) If you've bothered to even watch our page for the past few weeks, you'd see that we've been refusing mining sector requests to mine Uranium from our few remaining rainforests.

Originally posted by Sheep
Last but not least we point the public towards the fact that Alecrast's rich/poor gap is detestable. Ranked 3 in the wrold, there are undoubtbly many who are forced to live below the pverty line, or in fact on the streets. Is this a better way? Sheepstans think not.

1) 3rd in the region, not in the world.

2) Dispite this, people are still quite happy (39th in the region), which they would not be if they were below the poverty line or living on the streets.

3) That rich/poor gap only takes into consideration the situation
a) Before tax (We have 0% income tax, which is why the gap is so large, but we have other taxes)
b) Before private firm welfare efforts, outlined above

Originally posted by Sheep
As we clearly still detest the current regime of Alecrast, we have been the morally correct in trying to bring about a settlement. However this recent refusal from Alecrast is another attempt to stall the growing economic might of Sheepsta.

1) The refusal of Alecrast is not an attempt to stall your economy. It is an attempt to remove a violent, racist, religiously fanatic dictator.

Originally posted by Sheep
Alecrast sparked this conflict with objection to Sheepstan policies, they continued this conflict by embargoeing the isaland quite ineffectivley and they still continue this conflict with refusing to talk to the Sheepstan government.

1) You started this conflict with those politics. You're an evil dictator. Our objections are justified.

2) If by "ineffectivley" you mean the embargo is ineffective because there are now a total of 4 nations joining Alecrast in the Naval embargo and establishment of the No Fly Zone, with deployed forces many times what Sheepsta could realistically muster, then I suppose it's ineffective.

Originally posted by Sheep
If they want a war so bad, perhaps its time you found someone a little smaller to pick on. If Sheepsta is attacked, if any trading vessels connected through Sheepsta by treaty are attacked, if any futher attempt to detsbalise Sheepsta is made, we will consider it a decleration of war on Alecrasts part and they will then know the full might of Sheepstan arms.

1) You can bluster as much as you want, but any declarations made by you that aren't reasonable, such as your armed forces size and the size of your nuclear stockpile, then they will be summarily dismissed as godmodding by the judges, and on your head be it.

[Urban Ranger]

The Dominion of Noosland demands the illegal miltary junta in the state of Sheepsta to relinquish power back to the popularly elected government.

[Whaleboy]

The Libertarian Federation would like to offer a somewhat more reasonable response, by cautiously welcoming the statement made by Mr Dunning.

Any moves to peace or diplomatic solutions are preferable over continued tension, and after peaceful, productive relations have been established, we can see about pushing for a governmental change, but for now, Dunning is in actual power in Sheepsta, and whether or not that is legal but that is a separate issue. There can be no question of the fact that if we want to deal with Sheepsta, we have to deal with Dunning.

[Drogue]

Archaic: The Court is not able to impose one nations morals upon another, therefore unless you can show that Sheepsta has broken a treaty that it has signed, and continues to break a treaty that is is a member of, then a blockade is illegal. Therefore Sheepsta's first proposal must come into place. It is a illegal blockade and must be removed. You are fine to defend your nation, and you are welcome to remove your trade with Sheepsta, however you are not allowed to affect, illegally, the trade between 2 nations of which you are no part, ie. Sheepsta and an independent nation. You are welcome to impose yoiurn own sanctions, but not those of other nations.

Point's 3 and 4

3/A committance to no pre-emptive nuclear strikes
4/A possible re-entry of Sheepsta to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty

seem sensible. Indeed, I would hope yhat both nations aready have a no pre emtive nuke policy in place, and Sheepsta is offering an issue that will increase stability and safety, the return to the non-proliferation treaty, in return.

Points 2 and 5

2/ A possible non-aggression pact and a possible start of international trade between the two nations
5/Recognition of both governments by both governments.

are completely up to Alecrast and Sheepsta, although I do note that Sheepsta wishes to engage in talks and Alecrast refuses. I urge Alecrast to reconsider, however it is up to Archaic.

Whatever your countries policies are, is of little importance to anyone else. What is important, is the stability of the region. The blockade must be removed, and both nations must not launch Nukes. All nukes fired will be targeted by the CND-3 matrix that was launched many years (RL: weeks) ago, the 3rd versions of the Akirian missile shield, which has a success rate of 95%. This has cost over 30 Billion USD to produce and perfect, the original, CND-1 being launched decades ago (Christmas time) with the ISS. Akiria will look very strongly against any nation that launches nuclear weapons.

[Urban Ranger]

It is clear that the so called Armed Republic of Sheepsta seized power through an illegal coup, thus it cannot be recognised as a legitimate representation of the people of Sheepsta. This illegal government must relinquish power.

[Mr. President]

/me carefully tiptoes around Karakas' "Corrupt Dictatorship" rating and the "State of Democracy in Karakas" thread

[Urban Ranger]

Oh, is that right? Thanks for telling.

[Mr. President]

You'd have found out sooner or later. Probably.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Drogue
Archaic: The Court is not able to impose one nations morals upon another, therefore unless you can show that Sheepsta has broken a treaty that it has signed, and continues to break a treaty that is is a member of, then a blockade is illegal.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88377

On the 2nd Page, Urban Ranger clearly shows that Sheepsta has done exactly that. Claims made since by Sheep that the government he just deposed not being a member of the treaties dispite every previous government in Sheepsta (Including the Protectorates) being a member of them are retro-RPing (ie. Changing something accepted as fact after the event for one's benifit), and non-consistant with RP (For them to have not been a member of the treaty would have set off a diplomatic incident just like this, which clearly didn't happen), thus godmodding.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89383

Sheep clearly selling Nuclear Weapons

Originally posted by Drogue
Therefore Sheepsta's first proposal must come into place. It is a illegal blockade and must be removed. You are fine to defend your nation, and you are welcome to remove your trade with Sheepsta, however you are not allowed to affect, illegally, the trade between 2 nations of which you are no part, ie. Sheepsta and an independent nation. You are welcome to impose yoiurn own sanctions, but not those of other nations.

The Coalition blockade of Alecrast, Centralis, Noosland, and others, will stand. It is legal. What is not legal is the Sheepstan Military Junta, which we are trying to pressure to relinquish power through the force of these sanctions, crippling his economy and ability to wage war.

Originally posted by Drogue
Point's 3 and 4 seem sensible. Indeed, I would hope yhat both nations aready have a no pre emtive nuke policy in place, and Sheepsta is offering an issue that will increase stability and safety, the return to the non-proliferation treaty, in return.

Him doing something that should be expected of all nations is no concession. Furthermore, it does not address the issue of him being an illegal military Junta.

Originally posted by Drogue
Points 2 and 5 are completely up to Alecrast and Sheepsta, although I do note that Sheepsta wishes to engage in talks and Alecrast refuses. I urge Alecrast to reconsider, however it is up to Archaic.

You urge Alecrast to reconsider, but you don't consider the fact that Alecrast refuses on grounds easily justified. Why are you so ready to accept an illegal government?

Originally posted by Drogue
Whatever your countries policies are, is of little importance to anyone else. What is important, is the stability of the region. The blockade must be removed, and both nations must not launch Nukes. All nukes fired will be targeted by the CND-3 matrix that was launched many years (RL: weeks) ago, the 3rd versions of the Akirian missile shield, which has a success rate of 95%. This has cost over 30 Billion USD to produce and perfect, the original, CND-1 being launched decades ago (Christmas time) with the ISS. Akiria will look very strongly against any nation that launches nuclear weapons.

Stability of the region be damned. Your appeasement policies stink of Britain during the great war. They will work in the short term, but in the long term could be the ruin of us all. Illegal military Juntas that oppress their citizens, threaten nuclear war and sell nuclear weapons to nations and terrorists are not to be tollerated. Stability is better served by overthrowing such regimes, not allowing them to continue unchecked.

[Mr. President]

If Akiria objects but does not interfere, let Akiria talk all it wants if that makes it feel better.

Sheepsta is in the backyard of Alecrast and Noosland and Karakas and Centralis, not Akiria, and the former countries will deal with the problem in their backyard.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
It is clear that the so called Armed Republic of Sheepsta seized power through an illegal coup, thus it cannot be recognised as a legitimate representation of the people of Sheepsta. This illegal government must relinquish power.

What makes a government illegal? OOC: It is Sheeps nation,a nd if he wants to have a revolution and have a dictator, he can /OOC Just because it is not a democracy? It is not for other nations to impose. If there is a problem with the leader, it is an internal struggle, not one that involves other nations. When Sheepsta attacks, or does soemthing else to affect another nation, it becomes international business. Until then, it is a Sheepstan issue.

Originally posted by Archaic
Claims made since by Sheep that the government he just deposed not being a member of the treaties dispite every previous government in Sheepsta (Including the Protectorates) being a member of them are retro-RPing (ie. Changing something accepted as fact after the event for one's benifit), and non-consistant with RP (For them to have not been a member of the treaty would have set off a diplomatic incident just like this, which clearly didn't happen), thus godmodding.

No, Sheep said he withdrew from the treaties. That is not retro-RPing. Retro Rpig would be changign what he has said in the passed. Sheepm stated

All connections Sheepsta has to nuclear non-proliferation or first strike treaties are to be broken.

He did not say he wasn't a member in the passed, he said he withdrew.

Originally posted by Archaic
The Coalition blockade of Alecrast, Centralis, Noosland, and others, will stand. It is legal. What is not legal is the Sheepstan Military Junta, which we are trying to pressure to relinquish power through the force of these sanctions, crippling his economy and ability to wage war.

It is not legal. It is not legal for one nation to impose its will on another, that is violating sovereignty. If you wish to remove trade between your nation and Sheepsta, that is fine, but other nations wish to trade with Sheepsta, and that is not yours to stop.

Originally posted by Archaic
Him doing something that should be expected of all nations is no concession. Furthermore, it does not address the issue of him being an illegal military Junta

Expected? Under Alecrastian morals maybe. Is it no consession of yours to sign a non first strike treaty? That should be expected of every nation. As should respecting sovereignty. The Junta is not illegal. Just like the revolution in Akiria was not illegal. It is only illegal if it is illegal under their domestic law, since it is a domestic issue.

Originally posted by Archaic
You urge Alecrast to reconsider, but you don't consider the fact that Alecrast refuses on grounds easily justified. Why are you so ready to accept an illegal government?

Because it is not illegal. it is only illegal if it is under Sheepstan law. I accept the rulers of every nation, except one where another nation has conquered it (impossible in NS).

Originally posted by Archaic
Stability of the region be damned.

Nice to see you have the regions best interests at heart.

Originally posted by Archaic
Your appeasement policies stink of Britain during the great war.

That would involved Sheepsta being a power that wishes to take other nations, which I have seen no such intent of. It would also involved Sheepsta being one of the most powerful military nations in the world, when hald of the Akirian army, posted in Zetaris, is far more powerful than it's is. Sheepsta is no threat.

Originally posted by Archaic
They will work in the short term, but in the long term could be the ruin of us all. Illegal military Juntas that oppress their citizens, threaten nuclear war and sell nuclear weapons to nations and terrorists are not to be tollerated. Stability is better served by overthrowing such regimes, not allowing them to continue unchecked.

That is wrong. Stability is best served without pre emptive strikes, and with only interfering when they start other things. (OOC: This was proven by an Oxford Game Theoriest looking at "*** for tat" simulations, which create the most stability, even though they allow peaceful but illegal systems to remain in place. /OOC) Illegal blockades will not be tolerated. They can threaten nuclear war all they want. They will not use them. Akirias CMD systems will remove the threat of nukes, as it has done for many years. Stability is best served by the absense of wars. I do not promote appeasement, simply inaction, until we have a reason to act. We should have stopped hitler as soon as he marched into Austria, when he first acted outside his nation.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
If Akiria objects but does not interfere, let Akiria talk all it wants if that makes it feel better.

Akiria will defend any nation that is attacked, as we have promised to do. That blockade is illegal, and must be removed. The legitmacy of the Sheepsta ruler is not your concern, only their foreign actions. When they have actually attacked someone, then it will be legal. At the moment, there is no basis for it, expect that you do not like the ruler of Sheep. You don't get to approve the ruler of every nation. If necessary, Akiria is willing to use force to enforce the law of national sovereignty. Something which this illegal blockade is violating.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Sheepsta is in the backyard of Alecrast and Noosland and Karakas and Centralis, not Akiria, and the former countries will deal with the problem in their backyard.

Sheepsta is very near to Zetaris, Akiria's colony, which is protected by the Akirian army. It is in our backyard. And we will deal with any problem legally. However at the moment, the only problem is that actions of those countries in this blockade.

[GeneralTacticus]

No, Sheep said he withdrew from the treaties. That is not retro-RPing. Retro Rpig would be changign what he has said in the passed. Sheepm stated

All connections Sheepsta has to nuclear non-proliferation or first strike treaties are to be broken.

He did not say he wasn't a member in the passed, he said he withdrew.

*boggle* I didn't think logic could twisted that far. Would you care to explain how one could "withdraw" from something one was enver part of? It's be like Somalia anouncing that it would "withdraw" from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, when they were never a member in the first place.