Discussion: Unit/improvement building and city resource management

[ElmoTheElk]

I was just starting to think that we have designed about everything and there was only work for the programmers, when this question came up to me:

1. Where do we build units and region improvements?

Which comes around with the question:

2. What sort of city resource managment system do we use?

We don't have answers to this questions but some op the options are:

1a. In a city hex. The hex with the region capitol, just like in Civ2, etc.
1b. Click on a hex in the region where it has to be build (improvement) or on a city hex (unit).
1c. In a menu, acces by the UI, where you also specify the place to build (the menu disappears and you select location).
1d. Set an advisor in each region to build anything, just like you set with some preferences (importance-sliders).
1e. Other

2a. With settlers/builders/etc. hex-by-hex (user or automated by the AI).Just like in Civ/etc.
2b. With a region-central preference system (like in ctp, although I never played it). The preference are defined in region capitols. You improve i.e. the importance of quality roads to 80%, but the irrigation is then lower..
2c. With a automated people-do-it-themselfs-system, where the people of the region improve the hexes by themselves (i.e. improving road quality). You'll sure see which area is rich or poor!
2b. Click on a hex in the region where to build roads/farms/etc. Of course you can automate things by selecting (drag from point to point) an area which all needs farming, or click twice to build a road (hex by hex, but automated) between it.
2e. Other (...)

Well, to give my quick answers:

1 - b -> This is the most realistic and logical in my eyes, because the unit is build in a industry in the city and a region improvement (i.e. hoover dam) on it's place on the map.
2 - d -> This is more realistic then the settler-model, but it's still something YOU build, not the AI. So you have something do do (which is fun!).

At last: we can also say that city hex/resource improvements (whatever.... ) are just like region improvements (which are mainly buildings). SO we could use the same system for it.

Please give your opinions!

Elmo
[This message has been edited by ElmoTheElk (edited April 17, 2001).]

[Guildmaster]

I never liked the whole settelers/engineers units moving them around the map deal. I think it's tedious and unrealistic that it takes so long to build a simple road form two cities that are so close together. Major transcontinental railroads were built in a matter of years, not centuries as is the case with Civ and CIv2. I sorta like the PW system in CTP, but I do think we can improve on it.
This is where the whole "minor companies" idea came from- an idea I had a loooong time ago, things like that could be built by contractors. You have a public works menu, you decide that you want to build a railroad from point A to point B, or that you want to build a Colossus, or anything you need to be built. The game provides for you a list of available contractorsthat will build it for you, how much money it will cost you, how many jobs will be created, where those jobs will be, to what national economy does the money go (assuming the contractor is foreign) and what kind of quality you can expect from each contractor.
It can be easily micromanaged with "advisors," or subroutines that say...
If demand for (d) is (f), then build (x)
If build orders (x), then hire contractor with (y) qualifications.

And I think that major projects should be build on the map grid, even if they are in a major city. Partly because that will add a lot of custom flavor to the game, but also each project becomes a breeding ground for further development.
eg.
You want a city in hex 9114006, but there is nothing there but fields of wild grains.
So you build a research facility there. That summons scientists who need houses to live in which summon consturction workers, both of whom need to eat which summon supermarkets, gas sattions, banks, fire stations, hospitals, basically everything essential to modern life.
If it's in the ancient times, it would be a market, perhaps a witch doctor, a horse coral, engineers, etc.

------------------
He's spreading funk throughout the nations
And for you he will play
Electronic Super-Soul vibrations
He's come to save the day
- Lenny Kravitz

[ElmoTheElk]

I like your ideas, altough I see a problem here. If we really going to design so much detail in it, won't it be too difficult to design, program AND play then?

What about the unit building? Do you like it the same way?

[VetLegion]

I like the public works system from CTP.

[The Joker]

I think the advanced economy model should handle this.

Basically the people themselves build some stuff, if you allow them (which all capitalist countries would) like farms, factories etc etc. So this would be done automatically. Other things you could build - mines (although you could also sell the rights to build mines on land, whereafter corporations would do so), dams, irrigation systems (the people could also do this, so it would mostly be in ancient times where you would do it).

To build something you would simply select what you want from a menu, and click on the hex you want it in. Then the pc will do a check to see whether the available raw materials were available, and whether your gov had the necessary funds (things would only cost you money - these would be used to buy raw mats, labour etc on the free market). If one of these wasn't the case then you would be told. If you lack money you could borrow some (with an interest).

The improvements will then be built using the labour of the region they are built in, and buying the raw mats and other things on the free market from the cheapest producer, and all this would effect the overall economy.

On an imperial level (or lower if you wanted) you could select whether to buy from the cheapest producer, or from the cheapest domestic producer (the latter if you wanted to boost your economy).

Units will be built pretty much the same way. Either you just order it built, and the equipment is bought from the cheapest source, or you order it built in your civ, or you order it built in a specific region. Obviously the first would be the cheapest, but the last could be a good way to boost a region in economic trouble.

All this may sound complex, but to the player it really isn't. It will just require a few mouse clicks and it is done. However, the underlying mechanics are complex, since in this area complexity and realism is good.

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"All that monsters fear is the day."
- Kashmir

GGS Website

[ElmoTheElk]

I like the system you descipe here. I do have one question: About improvements,does the people just say 'Hey let's build a colloseum just because we have so much money'? I think YOU are the one to give orders where to build it and what. Then the people would make it (or not...), but you have the decision what improvements to build.

I agree with the public works system, this could be pretty ,uch automatic, however you should be able to increase or decrease the intrest in building irrigation, roads, farms (and more?).

The unit building system is also good in your system. This is very realistic and different from other games, but it sure is gooood!

So, if you want to build an army of 10 tanks, you would open an screen (1 click), select 10 tanks (1 slider), order it to build in a region (2 clicks) and confirm (1 click). Just 5 clicks to activate this really realistic and complex system! Pretty cool...

[The Joker]

Excactly!

There should also be a more advanced trade menu, where you could choose what countries you allow your people to sell units to, and what countries you want to buy units from. And the same with goods generally (whether your people were allowed to buy goods from a civ).

This screen would not be one you would access very often, and when you did it would mostly be to just adjust a few things. This would just make sure that you did not sell weapons to your enemies, or when entering a trade war you could forbid trading with certain civs.

Then, when you choose to buy a unit from the cheapest source this would just be from the ones you have allowed in the trade screen. All very simple and elegant despite its complexity.

About improvements, I agree with you that sometimes you would order it built. But there are some things, which are improvements in Civ2 but should not be in GGS. Factories, for examble. First in stead of a factory improvement it should be a number indicating the productive capital in a region. Second you should not have to worry about such things. A government doesn't order companies to build factories. They do so themselves. And this is what it should be like in GGS. Obviously you could build factories, like they did in Eastern Europe. But most governments wouldn't. And even if you have a planned economic system you could leave the micromanagement to advisors, if you didn't want to do it.

I think that in all aspects of the game you could choose your own level of involvement. If you didn't want to spend a lot of time on something you could choose not to, and only make general decisions like "do not trade with the Germans". But if you wanted to you could make really, really specific decisions as well, like "put a 30% sales tax on cars imported from Germany". And the same thing in warfare, diplomacy, production etc. And since the underlying algorithms are so complex and realistic every decision, broad or specific, would have realistic effects.

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"All that monsters fear is the day."
- Kashmir

GGS Website

[ElmoTheElk]

Exactly!

Well, of course factories are something the people build. And a cathedral is build by the religion in a region (so in each region with a different religion, there could be a different cathedral or other building!). However, things like a hoover dam, recycling system or sewers are only build by you. (Maybe in very modern times, companies can also start building roads and hydro plant, but I don't know)...

So I think each buiding would hav a % that people would build it. So a farm is 90%, and factories 80%. However, the chance that your people start building a hoover dam will be 2%...

Still not sure about the unit building. If we want to make it very realistic, then you have to build factories for tanks, and stables for cavalry???

Elmo

[Guildmaster]

Tanks and cavalry are the same way. You have a comapany that produces and markets widgets, so that company can build a widget factory or that company can hire a contractor who owns a widget factory to manufacture X widgets with Y specifications.

You, as the leader of your government have one of two options:

1) Tell your military advisor to handle the tank situation.

2) Go into the Military menu and select the Units option.
Select Tanks, and it will give you a list of all available tanks that are currently under use by your military.
Pick which one you want to be manufactured and how many per year.
Or you can tell R&D to design a new tank with Y specifications, then wait a few turns before they get back to you with a response.

Then you will be given a list of tank factories in your Civ that have the facilities and the security clearance to build them, along with the price each one will charge you, and the ammount of time it will take them to reach your quota. You can get really detailed if you like and have one factory produce half of them and another produce another half.

So where then do we get tank factories?
As your military grows the economy will automatically assume a demand for Tanks and the Factories that are needed to build them. You don't have to worry about that.
If you wanted one at a specific location, you could build one there yourself.


As far as the individual gas stations ans supermarkets go, all that would be more theoretical as there is no reason for the player to manually build such things. It can be assumed that such things are grouped together in the "Service Industry" category and supplied or demanded accordingly.
I was misunderstood... all you (the player) build is the research facility. The sims build the rest automatically. I suppose you could put a no-go zone around any complex that you want to keep top secret, in which case a town would grow just outside the no-go zone at the nearest convenient location. The point here is that the towns build themselves.

------------------
He's spreading funk throughout the nations
And for you he will play
Electronic Super-Soul vibrations
He's come to save the day
- Lenny Kravitz

[TempLeland]

First I'd like to answer the two original questions:

1. Where do we build units and region improvements?

I still think there will be two kinds of improvements, those that are put on individual tiles and those that affect the whole region (or some part of it, this is still an open issue as far as I can see). Maybe the former could be thought of as some special cases of units. But anyway, I think that choosing a thing to build from a menu (a list of icons, if you will) and clicking it somewhere on the map is a nice way to do it. Roads, farmland and other improvements which take several tiles could be built by dragging, or perhaps by somehow being to select a whole region with a click. So I agree with Elmo on improvements. As for units, I'm not so sure if it's important in which city they are built... if we use realistic time scales (that is, one turn is at least one month) then a unit can most certainly be moved anywhere within a region where it's built.

2. What sort of city resource managment system do we use?

Regions, regions, regions! I believe that region may have several cities (though only one capital), and most things should be done on a regional level, cities being more akin to poinst where resources concentrate. I think that within a region, the people should build all sorts of things by themselves (or according to laws of economics), but the direction has to be set by the player in order to produce something useful. For instance, the people may not build schools until ordered. Or they won't even think of intercontinental roads. Depending on the government policy (free market vs. planned economy) the player may have varying degrees of power to order people around, so my answer would be some sort of mix between regional planning (like, setting taxes and such), giving build orders manually (for instance, building that research center) and people doing stuff on their own (building a city around the aforementioned research facility).

It would be a nice touch to have the people rebuild destroyed improvements after war... so if you build a power plant and the enemy bombs it down, you didn't have to order it rebuilt. But that's not an essential feature.

About the economy system, I find myself agreeing entirely with Joker. The underlying system would be quite complex, but the player need not worry about it: he always hets the cheapest offer, taking into account the constraints of course. Guildmaster's ideas seem a little bit too detailed for me... for instance, I see little point in having security clearances for factories or many different types of tanks (let alone custom tailored ones). Perhaps even companies aren't needed, they could be simulated by some mathematical formulas which just calculate the best deals. I really should read the econ model sooner or later...

This is how I think a player can prepare for a war (in an early 20th century setting):

1. He makes heavy industry favorable by taxation. This can be done in either regional or national level. As a result, it becomes economic to build factories instead of, say, farmland. As long as there is demand for products of the industry, new factories keep popping up and the competition takes care of prices going down.

2. When there is an equilibirium (or when the player wants to start an arms race), the player can start building tanks. Like Guildmaster suggested, he could either assign an advisor to do it or select manually the region where they are built. Player's options include buying tanks from abroad or build them. If the latter is chosen, there would be a question of quantity and how much it will cost. No alternatives at this point, because the region is already chosen and the companies within a regions should be considered as a single entity (in my opinion).

3. In case the player wants to build more tanks than is the production capability of the existing factories, the price per unit will rise, because it includes the cost of building new factories. This would also affect the time it takes to build them, but given enough time the player could place an order of arbitrary number of tanks.

4. Tanks keep being manufactured and the player can see his army in (or supported by) that region growing.

I think we all agree on the economical aspects of production (except maybe for some minor details), but it seems that there are other factors to be considered. Especially regarding the improvements. At least I'm not quite sure what they are exactly, and who should build what; there is a large grey area which should be discussed and written down someday.

"Leland"

[chrispie]

For improvements, I think everyone will agree it's not really viable for us to say "build a temple in region X" ala Civ2 style. This system is clearly far to simplified for a game with such planned scope.

I do like the idea of funding areas, which in turn will see buildings being built. For example, I increase the spending on education, and 20 new schools appear (or are built) in region X and it's cities, as long as there are sufficient raw materials available.

I'd like to see an important part of the players job being to collect the resources, and tell the economy to do general things with those resources in order to improve itself.

As for building units, we have to think of the logics of real life making of armies. What an army needs (not to be confused with a GGS army, i.e group of units ) to be built is:

1. troops
2. weapons

The troops would come from barracks (maybe we could use some government structures for this sort of unique building?), and the same for weapons from weapons factories. Maybe the player would set gather points, where weapons and troops are shipped in a region to create the units.

Well, I'm just waffling in a contradictory sort of way, so I'll stop

[TempLeland]

I think you're quite right, my whole example of building tanks was rather simplistic. I think I can agree with you on players role in the game... to manage resources and direct them into various areas of interest in order to produce stuff, which in turn increase production or other resources, or otherwise help the whole civ to function better towards the player's goals. I think the player should have a strong feeling of being in charge of the whole country, not just some individual units or improvements.

"Leland"

[ElmoTheElk]

I see your point here. It's pretty realitic and well balnced probably, but I also think we need something to actually build for the player. Whatever this is, region improvenment, units or land improvements (canals, roads, etc.), the player needs this to make the game a 'civ-like' game. Ans I really want to be one, neverless the BIG difference with other civ titles...

As far as I can see, a realistic game is one of the main design goals, but we still need it to be fun to play...