IRC log for the first design meeting

[amjayee]

This is the log of the discussion we had Sunday, June 25th in irc. We used Undernet, and channel was #openciv3. This is the place where we will meet also in other times. Enjoy the discussion, and make your comments about it in this thread.

[amjayee]

Sorry this is very long... cut&paste it in the Notepad, and read off-line.

Start of #openciv3 buffer: Sun Jun 25 20:13:39 2000
*** Now talking in #openciv3
*** guildmast has joined #openciv3
guildmast: hi
amjayee: Wow, hi!
amjayee: Finally someone comes in.
guildmast: hehehe =)
guildmast: I made it
amjayee: I have waited three hours already.
guildmast: Has anyone else showed up?
amjayee: No, but I think at least Joker should come.
guildmast: I should think so..
guildmast: Ok well anyway you wanyt to talk about terrain?
amjayee: Yes, if you please.
guildmast: BTW I made a knew development last night in Civ2
guildmast: sorta
amjayee: The ideas you sent in the thread were generally good.
guildmast: You know how ICS is how to beat the 'pooter at deity level etc?
amjayee: Did you read the further suggestions I made?
amjayee: Hmmm... No.
guildmast: You know what's better than ICS at the lower levels (but only at the lower
levels)
guildmast: A small empire, onlt a few cities, like maybe three or four
amjayee: Yes?
guildmast: You take only a handful and build them up like nothing else.
amjayee: Go on.
guildmast: Well the key is this: Place your wonders precisely.
guildmast: You put Colossus, Astronomy and Isaac's College in the same city
guildmast: their compound effect generates over 1000 science once the city gets big
amjayee: Wow!
guildmast: Then for the rest you focus on the wonders that give you free buildings
like pyramids, women's sufferage, michelangelo's chapel, etc.
guildmast: It works because one large city 20+ is greater than three smaller cities
of 10
guildmast: more production means units get built faster
guildmast: Once you have three cities that can't get any bigger, you start building
others up one at a time
amjayee: Yes, that makes sense. And easier to defend also, with fewer cities.
guildmast: Exactly!
guildmast: A lot less to manage. Plus, you shoot for democracy. Once you have that,
put your luxuries up to a 4 or 5...
guildmast: cities go from 10 to 20 in ten turns
amjayee: I might try it out some time. Usually I play defensive/expansionist style.
guildmast: Of course it only works at the lower levels. It would destoy ICS
especially in the late game.
amjayee: So, have you something to say about terrain?
guildmast: I tried it on Deity level, the AI won't let you have the necessary wonders.
guildmast: Yes...
guildmast: Isn't vegetation a matter of rainfall?
amjayee: Not necessarily, but now when you say that, perhaps... but I think that
might be over-simplification.
guildmast: I don't want to be over-simplified, I just don't want the game to bee too
complicated.
amjayee: Hmmm. I need to think about it, it makes sense... but how to make the large
pine forests in the north?
amjayee: I agree about not too complicated. But I think it would not be so with
vegetation.
guildmast: We could assume that High altitude+moderate temperature+enough rain means
a pine forest...
guildmast: Low altitude means deciduous forest
amjayee: Here in Finland we have large pine forests, but with quite low altitude.
guildmast: But it's colder there
guildmast: I don't think the type of forest is important in game terms?
amjayee: Finland belongs to the cold temperate area, in the game terms.
guildmast: Hold on a sec, let me get a pencil...
amjayee: Not the type, but my point is, that with the current terrain properties, it
might be difficult to make forests.
guildmast: OIC
amjayee: Pardon?
guildmast: Well what is needed for a forest? Obviously forests are needed for the
wood resource...
amjayee: Yes, and it slows down the movement.
guildmast: We need a max. altitude, would you say no trees in the top category?
amjayee: Burning down forests makes good arable land - that's what our ancestors in
Finland have done for centuries.
amjayee: Yes, that's correct.
guildmast: That's what the Mayans did, a practice still used today- slash&burn
agriculture
amjayee: And we need forests of varying thickness. The forest type is decided by
other properties.
guildmast: Ok so the first variabl is for land type ocean/land right?
amjayee: That's what the vegetation is about - the thickness of the forest.
amjayee: Yes.
amjayee: Also other types, possibly, as I listed.
guildmast: Or do we want to make it a four option variable?
guildmast: Seawater, freshwater, land, other
amjayee: Four or eight... four should be enough for starters, though.
amjayee: Rivers also... or should they be made in some other way?
guildmast: the other here would refer for alternative styles of gameplay, perhaps
space or an asteroid lava pool or something. This could be defined otherwise
guildmast: Rivers, do you want rivers to be a property?
guildmast: Like, an on/off switch for rivers and if the switch is on, it would load
additional information?
amjayee: It should perhaps be a tile type, like land and sea - rivers are important,
and they are after all different from other terrain types.
guildmast: Or we could have a second pair... 00=no river, 01=stream, 10=irrigable
river, 11=navigable river
*** amjayee changes topic to 'Design meeting for Openciv3'
amjayee: Yes, that's possible.
guildmast: Except that rivers can be parts of forests, mountains, etc.
amjayee: If river is a tile type, it of course has the same properties as the other
types; so river tiles can have vegetation, and elevation, etc.
guildmast: the third variable, we all agree on elevation
guildmast: In Civ1 it was a type, in civ2 it was a property. I think it works better
that way
amjayee: Is it ok to have eight or sixteen values for it? It looks better that way.
guildmast: you mean for each property?
amjayee: For elevation.
guildmast: or for terrain?
guildmast: I'm thinking 16 variables for terrain
guildmast: All these would, I assume for the most part be invisible to the player
amjayee: If the elevation has 3 bits, it can have 8 values, if 4, it can have 16.
amjayee: Yes, they would.
guildmast: I don't think we would need more than 8
amjayee: Ok, eight is fine. But four is too little.
guildmast: But I agree four isn't enough
guildmast: 000=below sea level
amjayee: For ocean, elevation would mean depth.
guildmast: great idea!
amjayee: It would not be difficult to make.
guildmast: 001=coastal flood plain, 0-50 meters
guildmast: (or shallow shoreline
amjayee: Fine this far.
guildmast: Wait a sec, it might work if we just say "ocean tile=negative elevation"
guildmast: Very simple but it might mean we can't use below sea-level land
guildmast: because that would mean 000 on an ocean tile would be "above sea level but
still underwater"
amjayee: 000 could be at sea level or below it.
*** danw has joined #openciv3
amjayee: Hi, dan.
guildmast: right
danw: hi,
guildmast: Dan?
amjayee: After all, there are very few places with terrain below sea level.
guildmast: Oh, Dan Ward
amjayee: Yes, he's one of our programmers.
guildmast: Um... netherlands, death Valley, Dea Sea
guildmast: We really wouldn't be missing much, I mean no one really cares about the
Netherlands anyway. =)
amjayee: That's it, as far as I recall.
guildmast: j/k
amjayee: Dan, we are discussing the map system Guild sent in the forum.
guildmast: I'm writing it down, and will post the full thing later in the thing
guildmast: Basically, 000 means it gets flooded anytime the sea level rises
guildmast: or exposed everytime the sea retreats
amjayee: Yes, and occasionally as a "catastrophe" causing damage to the city.
amjayee: Meaning floods.
guildmast: There has to be water, of course.
guildmast: yup
guildmast: Ok so 000=sea level
guildmast: 001=sea level up to 50 meters
guildmast: 010=50 meters up to 200 meters (coastal lowlands)
guildmast: I know you're thinking metric, it's hard for me to convert this in mymind
guildmast: 200 meters is about 600 feet
amjayee: What is the "tree level" above which there are no trees, IRL?
guildmast: Um...
guildmast: Maybe 9000 feet?
amjayee: Yes, I use that usually when converting to feet.
guildmast: 3000 meters would you say?
amjayee: We have to find it out.
guildmast: Or do you want to have another level above that for REALLY high mountains?
guildmast: Like the Rockies are sometimes above 10K feet, but the Himalayas are
mostly above 25K feet
guildmast: Both are pretty much above the tree line
amjayee: I have thought about the largest level being "above 4000" (or 5000) meters.
Then, there could be "peaks" (sprites of mountains) above that, and the elevation of
the highest peak in the tile could be stored, for fun...
guildmast: Absolutely, the highest mountain gets +1 jobs for tourism
amjayee: The mountains in SMAC didn't look like mountains; we need sprites at the top
of the range to make them look better.
guildmast: sprites?
amjayee: Yes, images of mountain peaks, as in civ2.
guildmast: OIC
danw: I think the problem the SMAC developers had was how to place a unit on a
mountain & have it look good
guildmast: I have never seen SMAC
amjayee: I have though about that, too. If we make the mountain top "flat" and then
place a large enough sprite on it, it should work.
danw: Cool
amjayee: Ok, to continue: what do you think about having 5 values for temperature and
rainfall?
guildmast: how would you do that?
guildmast: you mean 5 each?
danw: what are they?
amjayee: yes.
guildmast: we have 9 digits letf
amjayee: For example, Arctic to Tropic, and Temperate as the medium level.
amjayee: Then warm temperate and cold temperate.
guildmast: cold temperate and sub-tropical
amjayee: Yes.
guildmast: o
guildmast: But how do you fit this in the code?
amjayee: With 3 bits. Some values would remain unused, but I think we need the medium
value.
guildmast: ok that leaves us only 6 bits if we're going with a 16-bit code
amjayee: Doesn't need to be 16 bits only, but let's see. what have we left?
guildmast: Here's a thought, you know how I said we could use the "other" feature in
the terrain type?
amjayee: Yes?
guildmast: We could use that to describe ice
guildmast: And that type would invert the temperature index just like the ocean type
inverts the elevation index.
amjayee: Hmm. Perhaps. But isn't Arctic the same as ice?
amjayee: I don't seem to understand.
guildmast: That way we can use eight different temperature codes with only +
guildmast: I mean only two bits
amjayee: perhaps.
guildmast: With the terrain types Ocean, freshwater, land, and then the fourth would
be ice
amjayee: But isn't that a little complicated? I think we are not that short of memory.
guildmast: then the temperature variables for "Ice" would be permafrost, shelf,
tundra, arctic
guildmast: It makes sense to me, as different types of vehicles are needed, different
training for infantry, different cultures, etc.
guildmast: And then on alien planets, might be totally covered with ice
amjayee: I don't see what you mean, I'm afraid.
guildmast: Don't be afraid
guildmast: Ok, tanks weren't designed for freezing winters, and neither were nazis.
For that kind of weather special fuels need to be constructed
guildmast: Ok, with the "land" terrain type, temperature is as follows:
guildmast: 00=cold temperate
guildmast: 01=temperate
guildmast: 10=sub-tropical
guildmast: 11=tropical
guildmast: But for the "Arctic" or "Ice Sheet" land type, temperature would be
inverted
guildmast: 00=Arable permafrost
guildmast: Like Russia and Alaska
guildmast: 01=Tundra
guildmast: 10=Seasonal Ice Shelf
guildmast: 11=Permanent Ice Shelf
amjayee: Ok, I see. But we don't need to go to so much detail right now. Anything
else to say about the terrain?
guildmast: Ok, we also need terrain roughness
guildmast: and rainfall
guildmast: and vegetation
guildmast: Would you say that "Terrain
guildmast: 00 - Flat
guildmast: 01 - Featured hills
guildmast: 10 - High steep hills
guildmast: 11 - Rocky mountainous
guildmast: is enough?
amjayee: I'm not sure. For now, it might be good.
guildmast: Precipitation?
guildmast: And this could be another benefit of the "arctic" land type, precipitation
is usually snow as opposed to rain
amjayee: I think we shouldn't restrict ourselves to strictly to 16 bits. With 32, we
can have 250000 tiles in a 1 MB map, which is quite a lot.
guildmast: Remember that the map also has to load all the properties for each code
guildmast: By the way, I don't want to restrict the actual size of the tiles to x
Kilometrs, I think the Civ2 thing works in that area
amjayee: Perhaps. But having a clear size for the tile might be good, in my
opinion... but anyway, fine for me.
guildmast: Actually you're right
guildmast: Now that I think about it, I never did want to get used to having one city
cover all of mexico
amjayee: That's excactly my point!
amjayee: That also clearly defines the scope of the game, geographically.
guildmast: And also by having people per tile, you don't want too many people for a
small map and too few for a large map
amjayee: Yes. These are things that need to be defined in the rules, and then stick
with them.
guildmast: So to play on the whole world you just use a bigger map and for a short
game just play on Europe
guildmast: yup
amjayee: What does 70 kilometers per tile sound like?
guildmast: um... 50 miles?
amjayee: about.
guildmast: That would mean some cities would take up whole tiles and then some
amjayee: Actually more like 40-45 miles.
guildmast: Let me think here, what's the circumference of the earth in metric?
amjayee: Yes, the city size could be shown on the map, larger cities filling the
whole tiles and beyond. But in that case, the tiles need to be drawn larger on the
screen.
amjayee: 40000.
guildmast: Existing civ2 gives 120x75 that's 9000 tiles
amjayee: It's something like 40020 - meter was originally defined as 1/40000th of the
Earth's circumference.
guildmast: OoK, I thought it was some universal chemical constant
amjayee: I calculated that to model our world with 70 km tile, we need 190000 tiles.
guildmast: I want more
amjayee: I think 250000 could be the medium map size.
guildmast: hehehe
guildmast: good
guildmast: 9000 is just too restricting, especially if we get to deploy units
directly on the spot
amjayee: With 50 km tile, we get 380000 tiles.
amjayee: I agree.
guildmast: That would do knicely
amjayee: Yes. For multiplayer, people would use smaller maps.
guildmast: but all the more reason to conserve memory in the terrain model
amjayee: Yes, but I still think we can go up to 32 bits. Or 24 at least.
guildmast: Danw, you're being quiet over there?
guildmast: Well how much detail is really needed?
amjayee: Not very much - but we need to make the map flexible. We need to be able to
make other planets with it, too.
guildmast: agreed
amjayee: Send your suggestion to the thread, I will think about it and make
suggestions for corrections then.
guildmast: You mean the terrain model?
amjayee: Restricting too much the properties and their value ranges, restricts the
flexiblity.
amjayee: Yes.
guildmast: Ok, here's another thing for you, what do we do about the great circle
route?
amjayee: But 32 bits per tile is the maximum, IMO.
amjayee: Umm... What's that?
guildmast: You know, the curvature of the earth?
amjayee: yes.
guildmast: What we're looking at is a flat map
danw: No more than 32bit would make the multiplayer coding easier
amjayee: What do you suggest, Dan?
guildmast: Well if we're going with 32, we're going all out
guildmast: How can you make a flat map to accomidate the curvature of the earth?
guildmast: Do you want a distorted hexagon, or should we try some sort of soccerball
effect?
amjayee: It is impossible to represent a spherical map on a surface. We would need a
real spherical map, which is very difficult to make, if we want to keep the tiles -
that we really do want. I'm examining possibilities to create a spherical map, but
for now, we will go with a cylindrical one.
danw: Lets stick to a flat map.
danw: Agreed
guildmast: Well in Openciv3 II, we are going with a spherical map
guildmast: =)
amjayee: In future, we might have a sphere, yes. But it would take way too much time
right now - and we all want to get playing the game soon.
guildmast: But if I go to the top edge of the map, I want to turn up on the other
side, ok?
amjayee: Anyway, cylinder and sphere would be two totally different map modes - it
would be very difficult to convert cylinder maps to spherical ones.
danw: No
guildmast: please?
amjayee: Actually, very rarely people cross the poles, even today.
amjayee: ICBM's could be shot anywhere, so we don't actually need to get to the poles.
guildmast: ICBMs have a range just like any other thing, that's what the cuban
missile crisis was all about.
guildmast: Soviet continental missiles had a range of only 10000 miles, most not far
enough to attack US mainland
amjayee: Weren't those middle-range missiles the Soviets tried to sneak there?
guildmast: or was it less?
amjayee: That ewa
amjayee: sorry
amjayee: That was back then. Now they can fire anywhere on Earth.
guildmast: Well then all we kneed to do then is reflect that in the rocketry index
guildmast: paylod vs. range
amjayee: There could be missiles with different ranges. ICBM's could hit anywhere.
amjayee: But on to other things. Did you read the Agenda I sent? What do you think of
those ideas?
guildmast: agenda?
amjayee: I sent a thread - Design agenda for Openciv3.
amjayee: I'm not sure did I use the right word though...
danw: I had a quick look through.
amjayee: My intention was to gather in one place the main features we want in the
game, without going to too much detail, and decide on those.
guildmast: Off the subject, I want to see different effects generated from
radioactive fallout than regular pollution. In regular Civ, pollution doesn't
really do anything. I always wanted to see what if wierd mutants arose like
Godzilla and stuff in a bizarre wicked earth scope
danw: One idea that stood out was taking warriors out of the general population.
Rather than them mythincally appearing when you buy a unit
amjayee: So, we could all know that this is what we will have in the game, and
concentrate on discussing the details of the system.
amjayee: That is a popular wish for the game, it has been there from the beginning.
danw: I didn't like the deploying armies stuff though. I think one of the best parts
of Civ is commanding your armies
guildmast: This could be a hidden aspect of the game, only way to find it is to have
a nuclear war
amjayee: You would still command them, but differently.
amjayee: Guildmaster, yes, perhaps something like that could be done, but that's
future.
danw: IMHO think the Civ style works. It doesn't need changing. However I'm generally
against big changes.
amjayee: The idea in deploying units is removing the tedious tasks of moving the
units tile by tile, and moving unit across the continent taking hundreds of years.
guildmast: I am for BIG changes.
amjayee: I am for medium changes. We shouldn't be afraid of changing things -
especially if those things are the not-so-popular features of civ2.
guildmast: You know, I would like all sorts of hidden goodies in the game that no one
knows about until they are discovered, like the post-nuclear war mutant game
danw: Moving units is fun
guildmast: Moving units is not fun, moving units is tedious, boring, and gets old
real fast.
danw: It's the most immediate part of the game. It gets the player involved
guildmast: Attacking is fun
amjayee: Hmm. Perhaps we could start with civ2 style, but that's one thing that we
absolutely need to make a choice for the player - civ2 style and deploying style.
amjayee: But, if we have much larger map, it would KILL you if you need to move the
units around tile by tile.
danw: It never has for me.
danw: That's one of the fun parts, building your army so that it's ready to attack.
amjayee: You would still move the units, but with some things that make it easier and
more fun. But ok, we will start with civ2 style anyway. But we just need to reserve
the possibility for the another system.
amjayee: What about other things? Like building armies, not units?
guildmast: Well, you need to have training grounds, these train X number of soldiers
per turn
danw: Guess what? I prefer the Civ style : ) Perhaps if you fleshed things out it
would appeal more...?
amjayee: Like how?
guildmast: and production needs to produce x number of rifles (swords, etc) per turn
danw: Is it possible to build armies to suit my style. Or does an army have x
soldiers, y artilery, etc
guildmast: I thought the [point of designing our own game, is that it is our own, and
not just a more advanced copy of someone else's idea?
amjayee: The armies would be completely customizable, so they fit a particular
purpose.
amjayee: I agree, Guildmaster. We should be ready to change things radically, if
needed.
danw: Could you split one army into two in order to persure two goals?
guildmast: An army is built as you build it and reinforce it. You have army group 1,
army group 2, and army group 3.
guildmast: To start out with, they each have 100 infantry, 50 cavalry, and 10
artillery
amjayee: Perhaps, at least temporarily&if the two armies go to far from each other
they get some penalties...
danw: Why should they get penalised?
amjayee: They are still under the same commander.
guildmast: You could, if you wanted, transfer all artillery to army group 3 when 3 is
laying seige to a castle
amjayee: Of course you could build a new commander. But why shouldn't you build two
armies, if you need two?
danw: Can't I assign a new command, promote someone from the ranks?
danw: Because an opportunity might arise when I need to split my army in the field
amjayee: The commanders need to be "built" in military colleges or something.
guildmast: Then you could send all the cavalry to group 2 in pursuit of another army,
and with the 100 infantry in group 1 you could disperse in a patrol zone.
danw: Say I take one town & want to leave a garrison whilst I attack a fort that has
recently become unguarded
guildmast: Definately, you should be able to split, combine, transfer, etc with all
your armies.
amjayee: In those cases, you could split the forces temporarily, but keeping them
close to each other.
guildmast: I don't see why a penalty is needed, I mean the penalty is there are less
men when it gets attacked.
amjayee: Command needs to be a key point in army system.
danw: Yes but real armies can sub divide.
guildmast: That could be a technology thing
amjayee: And those men are not as well coordinated - command is vital for an army.
guildmast: command I mean
guildmast: You look at the US army, there is a rigid command structure, everyone
knows who outranks who.
guildmast: You take one platoon out of a regiment, those men are no less coordinated,
because they have a lieutennant in charge
amjayee: That's the point. In every army, there is a chain of command. The
lower-ranked men can't make large decisions.
guildmast: or a captain
guildmast: and if he gets killed, there is still seargants that outrank privates
guildmast: etc.
danw: In the US Army maybe. The UK army is more modular
amjayee: Read Julius Caesar's Gaul War (or something) for a good example of my idea.
When Julius split the army, the other half was always in trouble...
guildmast: Well then for that you could have a particularly good general which would
bestow bonuses to his army. Troops separated from his army wouldn't get that bonus
guildmast: explain the UK army?
danw: This is why I like individual units. How about having a commander unit instead?
amjayee: Yes, that might work. The "commander unit" always gives bonuses, and
sometimes you would get especially good commanders. The bonus would be diminished
when the distance to commander is larger... a very good idea.
danw: UK army is more geared around rapid reaction. So, in theory, we're able to put
the units together we require & send them off to fight.
danw: You could even have an experience system for commanders
guildmast: Well a unit is created any time there is one or more men involved.
guildmast: On the map, anyway. You right-click on the unit to see what's there.
guildmast: You might see something like "1 spy"
amjayee: Every once in a while, you could get a really good general (Napoleon, Julius
Caesar, Alexander the Great) that gives huge bonuses to your army.
guildmast: or "100 legion, 20 archer, 1 Robert E. Lee"
amjayee: Of course the general is not a single man, but the "staff" of the general,
and all command structures would coun into it.
guildmast: "1 spy, 50 Legionaires, 15 heavy cavalry, 1 Julius Caesar, 1 Partrige in a
Pear Tree"
amjayee: WTF is the Partridge thing?
guildmast: "20 stealth Bombers, 2 Stealth Fighters"
guildmast: I's a song
amjayee:
guildmast: (a joke)
amjayee: But still, I think you should build armies, not single units, concerning the
scope of the game - 1 tile being 50-70 kilometers.
guildmast: Does that make sense then? The unit moves all those men together. It can
be split to form new units, combined to form stronger units, etc.
amjayee: Or reinforced etc.
guildmast: exactly.
danw: I think moving units give people something to do. Otherwise we become an
automated spreadsheet
amjayee: Yes, the idea should be, that mainly the units are moved as an army, and
splitted if needed.
danw: Combining units into an army has it's good points.
amjayee: But the people would still get to move units in this system.
guildmast: Sounds good to me
guildmast: And commander would count as a separate military class.
guildmast: Here's how you canget commanders:
guildmast: a)train them at a military academy like West Point, etc
guildmast: b)Find them in presents
guildmast: c)they arise out of veteran armies
guildmast: they can be generic commanders giving set bonuses or named commanders
giving additional bonuses
guildmast: Say a "commander" would give +1 morale and +1 attack while a "Scipio"
would give +2 morale, +1 attack, and +1 defense
guildmast: These are all contained in customizeable .txt file and can be added,
removed, renamed, remodified just like in Civ2 you can customize your game
amjayee: I think that the commanders would only be trained in military academies, and
every army needs a commander. Every once in a while, the commander gets a bonus for
a short while - remember the scope. The generals don't live forever.
guildmast: U.S. Grant never went to West Point
danw: I think for this game generals should live forever
amjayee: Naming commanders might sound silly - US army having Julius Caesar as a
commander - or Robert E. Lee in ancient times.
guildmast: Most of the best Roman commanders were battle veterans
amjayee: Ok, so let them also rise from the armies.
danw: I don't think they need famous names
guildmast: Well, I dunno. But I do think we need to distinguish between regular
commanders and great generals.
danw: How do you distinguish
amjayee: Yes. You could be notified, that a great general has risen from your troops,
and army x now has this and that extra bonus etc... after some turns the bonus would
disappear.
guildmast: Maybe a great general is something you find in a present if (and only if)
you have both a veteran army and a military academy somewhere in your empire. Maybe
he's just someone that reads a lot of books
amjayee: I don't like the "present" idea - they would just appear.
guildmast: ok
guildmast: I'm gonna go get some food, brb
amjayee: Ok then. Would we build single units, or armies?
danw: I vote single units with mechanism for building these into big armies
amjayee: Hmm. Single units might have their advantages after all - it would be easier
to handle the different eras.
guildmast: I agree, we would build them as single units, say x number of units per
turn by y facility
danw: I meant Civ style units
amjayee: Ok, single units. If you combine them into army, they get some bonuses for
better coordination. The bonus depends on the commanders.
danw: yes that sounds logical.
amjayee: How good your commanders are depends on your "military science" knowledge,
and some random occasions.
amjayee: Whic´h brings us to science; what did you think about that?
amjayee: Is the idea of "science levels" and breakthrough ideas good?
danw: I didn't spend long on the science stuff. Have you checked out the Tech Tree
stuff on gamasutra?
amjayee: Yes, that gave me some ideas. But the old tech tree idea is restricted, as
some advances are not "packages" that can be found just like that - like
mathematics, your knowledge of maths rises gradually.
danw: Hmmm I'm not sure about that. I think a lot of science was held back by lack of
language & the religious persecution
amjayee: So my idea is, that some "larger" sicentific fields would have a knowledge
level, that rises gradually, and only the breakthrough ideas would be handled as
"technologies" as in civ2.
amjayee: Yes, many things would affect the development in science.
danw: Is that significantly different from tech trees?
amjayee: Some level of knowledge in some area could be a prerequisite for some
progress on other area - or for the discovering a "breakthorugh idea".
amjayee: It works somewhat like a tech tree, but not all technologies are discovered
in one package.
danw: Would that make it harder for civs to get techology by conquest?
amjayee: No. You could get a breakthrough idea, or your knowledge level in some area
could rise slightly.
guildmast: Guys, I'm still hungry. I be back in about an hour or so, make sure
there's more people here when I get back
amjayee: Also you could examine the weapons you steal from enemy, or the wrecks left
on the battlefield, and gain a rise in the knowledge level.
guildmast: BTW the technology thing sounds good to me from what you're saying
amjayee: Great.
danw: I think one of the bad things about tech in Civ is that Sciency techs don't
have an advantage over military ones
amjayee: That could be corrected. I divided the technologies into "sections" - all
sections could be treated differently. There was academic section, which works in
some way, and military, which could work in another way, etc.
guildmast: One thing I might like to add before I go, are we going to have the
possibility for dark ages? I mean, shouldn't it be possible to LOSE technology?
danw: That's why I though it'd be cool if this system made it harder to steal
technologies if your people aren't advanced enough
amjayee: Stealing tech should be harder, yes.
amjayee: About dark ages, that should also be possible. Like this:
danw: So a middle ages civ couldn't get tanks without learning more
amjayee: You need some scientific work to PRESERVE the level you have reached. Also
some breakthrough ideas could be lost in large wars.
amjayee: If you don't have enough scientific effort, the knowledge level lowers.
guildmast: Well you need to have some sort of archive.
amjayee: Yes, to steal an idea you need to have all the prerquisites for it.
guildmast: If that archive were destroyed, a certain percentage of the
latest~greatest sciense would be gone
amjayee: For example, if libraries are destroyed, something could be lost.
amjayee: Also building libraries would help preserving the techs.
danw: that's a good idea
guildmast: Right. Imagine what would happen to our prescious Genome project if the
computers storing the information were blown up in a terrorist action?
amjayee: Excactly.
guildmast: Well Im off to Taco Bell
guildmast: I will be back later
*** guildmast has quit IRC (Leaving)
amjayee: In a large nuclear war, most advanced information would be lost.
danw: unless you had some advanced storage system
amjayee: Yes.
danw: Are we having a dev meeting tonight?
amjayee: I'm not sure. At least I might not be able to be here very late.
amjayee: Other things: What about the population system?
danw: Ok I'm not going to be there so I'll stay on here for a while
amjayee: ok
danw: As I said I like the conscription idea (as it limits the size of armies). How
does your idea solve the ICS problem?
amjayee: What is ICS anyway?
-:[/b] [danw] PING
danw: Infinite City Sprawl. Basically it's advantages to create lots of small cities
with few improvements instead of a few big well placed ones
amjayee: If you need certain amount of people for each job, you wouldn't get much
advantage of that. Also, the city size should affect strongly its production.
amjayee: If the city can produce many things simultaneously, there is no ICS problem.
danw: Possibly. But its a big problem.
amjayee: So, how much/how quickly a city can produce things, depends on the amount of
workers, and the production facilities.
danw: Basically we need to bias things toward large cities
amjayee: I agree. But very large cities should also have their disadvantages. Some
medium cities should be better than one large, or many small cities.
amjayee: Perhaps the efficiency of production could depend on the city size? For each
era there could be the optimum size, and lrger and smaller cities would get
penalties.
danw: I agree. But a well run large democratic city should be more productive than
10+ fundamentalist cities with limited buildings
amjayee: Yes. The organization, infrastructure and manpower all need to be taken into
account.
danw: If we solve ICS it will be a major win for us
amjayee: Yes. I think it is quite easy to solve. Also another thing to fight it could
be to add much larger inefficiency penalties when the number of cities grows,
especially in pre-modern times.
danw: Sorry I'm gonna have to go. See you next week
*** danw has quit IRC (Leaving)
amjayee: bye
*** guildmast has joined #openciv3
amjayee: hi agaibn
guildmast: What happened to dan?
amjayee: He had to go.
guildmast: OIC
guildmast: Are you male or female?
amjayee: Is there something you'd like to discuss?
amjayee: male
guildmast: I thought about archives
guildmast: stores
amjayee: Yes. There should be many kinds of storage buildings - granaries, warehouses
and archives.
guildmast: I think it's unrealistic to have resources ans things be stored at some
omniscent place readily available
guildmast: Right.
amjayee: I agree, but people have shown some opposition against the warehouse idea.
guildmast: Methinks we could have four different class of information:
amjayee: Perhaps we should sneak it in without others noticing...
guildmast: hehehe
guildmast: It's too good not to
guildmast: Check this out...
guildmast: There's 1) Top Secret4
guildmast: This is so secret that your people don't even know about it. Research is
slow because at the same time, the only people that do know about it are the
scientists working on it are the only ones that know the information exists. You
don'teven share this with your allies.
amjayee: Yes, classificating information is good. I have also thought about that
sometimes.
guildmast: There can only be one archive for such information and if it's destroyed,
the scientists and the technology goes with it.
guildmast: then there's 2)Secret Info
guildmast: This is harder to destroy because there's more people that know about it.
It's existence is well documented, but the specifics are kept a close eye on. You
share this with your allies.
guildmast: then there's 3) Public Knowledge
guildmast: This is hard to destroy because you would have to go about burning books
and stuff, but the information is readily available at the library. Countless
archives remain for this kind of knowledge
guildmast: 4)Common knowledge
guildmast: This is so basic to the people in your culture that you can't lose this
science since it doesn't need to be archived.
guildmast: 3-diffusion happens on a restricted level
amjayee: Except after some really large catastrophe, like nuclear holocaust - though
even then it disappears slowly.
guildmast: 4-Diffusion occurs automatically. You can't stop it no matter how hard
you try.
amjayee: Sounds good.
guildmast: 2- no diffusion, only through espionage
guildmast: 1-No diffusion. Period. Espionage at severe penalty
guildmast: What kinds of catastrophes are there?
guildmast: Earthquakes?
guildmast: Volcanos
amjayee: Perhaps your enemy might sometimes learn about you working on that kind of
project, or possessing that kind of information - possibly due to a information
leak. The security level of your archives could affect this
guildmast: Floods
guildmast: right. Something could also happen, like an enemy spy being one of the
scientists working on the project
amjayee: All major catastrophes should be there, and their appearance should depend
on geography. Earthguakes and volcanoes appear in specific places, floods only on
continent etc.
amjayee: floods on coast I mean.
guildmast: This would add their science level to your own, but they would get the
tech as well as you.
guildmast: Flood on rivers too
guildmast: Hurricaines
guildmast: Do we want Asteroids?
amjayee: Yes, of course. Depending on the elevation perhaps.
amjayee: Volcanoes near the equator usually.
guildmast: really?
amjayee: Occasionally meteors and asteroids could appear.
guildmast: no, there are volcanoes in Iceland, Canada, S. America
amjayee: No I meant hurricanes in the equator. Dammit.
guildmast: etc
guildmast: O
guildmast: What about Godzilla?
amjayee: Not excactly the equator... about the latitude of Florida usually.
guildmast: That's more like a man-made disaster
amjayee: I don't know. Perhaps in some conditions.
guildmast: During game preparation, at the option screen, the game could ask: "Do
you want Sci-fi?"
amjayee: Alien attack?
guildmast: Yes!
amjayee: Hah... perhaps the player could set that he wants an alien attack, and then,
when the player has enough technology to be able to fight them at least in theory,
it could occur.
guildmast: If no, no aliens, no godzilla, no post-holocaust mutants. If yes, all
these things
amjayee: From 1950 perhaps the alien attack could be counter-able.
amjayee: With lots of luck.
guildmast: and germs
guildmast: =)
amjayee: Hmm. The system should be, that most countries want to live peacefully.
Sometimes, ambitious dictators could arise, that try to conquer the world.
guildmast: Here we go, terrorists
guildmast: Anything from bombings to computer viruses
amjayee: I'm terribly sorry, but I need to go. Are you going to be here, in case
someone appears?
guildmast: um... maybe
guildmast: If I am I probably won't be paying attention
amjayee: Send the map thing to the thread. If someone comes, save the log and send
it... I will make a summary of this meeting and make the log available.
guildmast: I wish this mIRC made sounds for someone entering the room
guildmast: ok
amjayee: Yes.
guildmast: can it do that?
amjayee: Terrorists is good... but let's continue the talk in the forum. Perhaps next
weekend we could try to get more people involved.
amjayee: Possibly, I don't know. But now I need to go. Bye, and good night... or
whatever time you have there.
guildmast: ok bye
End of #openciv3 buffer Sun Jun 25 21:50:19 2000

[This message has been edited by amjayee (edited June 26, 2000).]