Hey, Vel!

[Pedrunn]

And to think i used to like these CTP2 x CIV3 discussion

[Harovan]

Nobody starts a CtP2 vs Civ3 discussion here. I hate them myself and said this not only once. Dale asked, why people install Civ3, but not modded CtP2, and I answered him. A short abstract is, that it's a bit harder to install modded CtP2, which is for some people still too much.

Then hexagonian said among other things, that Vel, who is playing the vanilla game, will soon see the limits of the AI, and I extended this to the rampant pollution (it's way too high), the diplomacy (say "no" to everything) and the annoying piracy. I mention again, in the vanilla game, hardly anyone here can render this false. And in the same moment I said, that these things are fixed in the mods. The point I wanted to raise was Vel will soon see all facts, why modding was essentially needed.

Locutus, thanks for your intervention, but why some here see this as an offense is just beyond me.

[mapfi]

I think I can tell you why some people did take it as an offence. Whenever you decide to post in these forums it's about the too many times discussed arguement CtP2 vs. CivIII and every post of you has got something bad to say about CtP2. We also know it's not perfect but we happen to like it.
It's not that you are not allowed or welcome to post here but those reading the forums regularly know you're opinion and might be sick of hearing it again and again.
Do we come over to the CivIII forums and post like that? (Ok, there might be some - I don't know...)

[Dale]

When concerned with the CTP2 vanilla game, I completely agree with Sir Ralph. It is a pretty ordinary game. But with the Super Apolyton Pack, I see the game that the designers originally wanted. Such a pity Activision didn't allow them time to finish.

That said, there's also massive faults with Civ3 vanilla, even with the patches. Tech-whoring/trading, lumberjacking (which I understand is fixed now), the fact that the game feels like I'm running City-States instead of an Empire, and my own PERSONAL (note that's it's a personal opinion) annoyance...... workers.

So what it basically boils down to is this:
- Some people like CTP2 and will defend it.
- Some people like Civ3 and will defend it.
- Some people like both.
- Some people like neither.
- Some people like yellow bananas.

So my point is: Get over it. They're two different games, for two different types of people.

[King of Rasslin]

Ok, what I hated the most about Call to Power was the pitiful AI. I actually feel threatened when I start next to the Zulu or the Aztecs! The CtP AI annoyed you with the piracy, and diplomacy was very bad. The CtP AI did what the Civ 2 AI did- annoy you to death or attack you when you are 2 ages behind in technology.

CtP has a load of city improvements that aren't really necessary. Drug store, airport, 5 or 6 different power plants, I can't remember them all. Civ 3 is much simpler, with buildings giving a simple bonus and costing a simple amount to maintain. I think CtP is nicer to builder types, and I am NOT a builder.

Tech progression is rather fast in CtP. In Civ 3, where a spearman can beat a tank, you don't have to pump science to 90% and have a new unit every 10 turns. I love Civ 3 because it turned away from Civ 2, but I feel that CtP just makes things too complicated. I mean that in a bad way! Alpha Centauri is complicated in a good way, but CtP has too many silly concepts (piracy! space cities!) to keep it going.

BtW, I don't ever remember losing a city to the AI in CtP. If you do, can you steal or lose PW points? I like Civ 3's system of having to protect your workers. I think Civ 3 is better for the war type player, since CtP has too many other options to succeed. I respect Vel because his guides helped me when I was new at Civ 3, and I'm just surprised that he would turn to this. I might give it a try, but I'm getting PtW first.

[centrifuge]

Well... to each his own.

[Velociryx]

Been away from the forums this weekend, alternating between testing the latest build of CB and more playin' with Ctp2 in the name of bre'search....

Anyway, to answer some of the questions posed here:

Never played Ctp1, so I don't really know what the key differences are between 1 and 2.

The main reasons I find Ctp2 preferable to Civ3 tho are as follows:

* More involved combat. Units have a variety of different combat abilities that can be combined in army groups in exciting and dynamic ways. This, plus the option to retreat, makes combat MUCH more vibrant in Ctp2 than in Civ3.

* Unconventional warfare. People in the Civ3 forums have been complaining that the Privateer unit is useless, as it cannot disrupt shipping in Civ3....this is *exactly* what Piracy addresses in Ctp2, adding depth to the overall experience.

* Unconventional warfare (continued). Televangilists, Lawyers, Slavers, etc.....fantastic additions to the game. If it was me, I'd have gone the other way, and had buildings inside specific cities (minor wonders, maybe) that would execute these specialized attakcs--slavers being the exception here--rather than making them unit based, but that's just a stylistic difference. The main advantage tho, is that if you want to make use of the greater depth Ctp2 provides via these methods of waging unconventional war, it's built into the framework already. You can simply elect not to use it if it's not your bag. Contrast that with Civ3, where if you WANT to disrupt someone's shipping via piracy, you can't elect to do so, cos the option just isn't there.

* Folks in the Civ3 fora have been clamoring for sea-cities since the game's release.....Ctp2 shipped with that capability.

* The Civ3 Mod Community have complained bitterly about the hard limits on total number of techs, difficulty in making "deep" scenarios and such.....Ctp2, as far as I can see, is to this day, the most highly customizable game out there.

* In Civ3, there is no real "Sense of Empire." Sure, your cities all have the same color of border, and they may all be working toward a common goal (that being, your eventual domination), but there's nothing that really binds the cities together into a cohesive whole. Public Works does that for Ctp2. You can make the conscious decision in the game to take a productivity hit empire wide, in the name of progress for the empire as a whole (example: The latest game I played, I conquered an enemy nation that contained a TON of snowy terrain....bleh....bad for productivity. Immediately after the war, when all was once more peaceful in our world, we raised the PW tax to 80% (taking as much as was possible to take from our cities without causing negatives), and used that huge surge in PW funds to terraform all of the snow-covered wastes into productive land for our new cities there. The process took more than a century, and when we were done, we....as an EMPIRE, had really accomplished something.

* Events, Feats of Wonder and wonder movies. Those are my thing. I love stuff like that. Not present in Civ3.


And now that I have sung Ctp2's praises, here are some of the things I was a bit disappointed in. Call this the beginnings of my Ctp2 wishlist:

1) Not enough diplomatic options. I had to wipe a perfectly good trading partner off the map cos I couldn't get him to leave the little kingdom I was in a military alliance with alone! Would have been GREAT had there been an option "request you call a cease fire with X" option, cos I could have used my diplomatic clout to prevent the war, and kept a trading partner.

2) Resources - Good concept, not carried far enough. I'm waiting patiently to see what's currently being done in this area by the modders working it, but I'm heartened by what I'm hearing so far!

3) Lack of upgradeability for troops in the core game. That really blows. And despite all the awesome summary screens, there's no good way to round up all your outdated troops into one central location for disbanding. It's busywork, and in a game that has done so remarkably well at reducing busywork, this seems a glaring oversight.

4) Barbs should not appear, except in areas covered over by FoW. Another oversight, IMO, and more of an annoyance than anything. If I go to the time and trouble to ensure that I have no FoW areas in my empire, I should not have to deal with Barb uprisings in firmly controlled areas. Migrations from neighboring states are another matter of course. Dealing with barbs in areas I've already got firmly controlled amounts to more busywork.

5) AI. It sucks. Post-mod, the AI is much improved, but still lacks that killer instinct to take advantage if it finds itself in a superior position. In fairness to Ctp2, however, this problem is hardly unique to this game. I've seldom played games where the AI was worth a hoot.

There are some others, but that's enough for now.....I gotta get back to my game....

-=Vel=-

[SMIFFGIG]

Hey Vel, I agree with what you say

1)

Not enough diplomatic options

Look at these diplomatic options that where in a BETA of CtP2 but where not included in the final release:

+Request they mass troops
+Request Invasion
+Request break agreements
+Request Nuke Reduction
+Request bio weapon reduction
+Request nano weapon reduction
+Request annual gold (as in Civ3)

It would be SO cool if these all could be re-implemented

2)

Resources - Good concept, not carried far enough.

Look at these 2 threads from the creation forum

First one "Good Possibilities" alot of very good ideas on how to make the trade system better and like civ3

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55580

Second one "Pedrunn's Trade System" this is it going into action, a trade system exactly like civ3's only with even more extra stuff. So if all goes well the CtP2 trade system will be better than Civ3's

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62425

3)

Lack of upgradeability for troops in the core game

Do you mean there are to many troops that dont upgrade to anything else ???
Because there is a SLIC code that makes it so if you discover an advance which allows you to build updated units eg musketmen instead of Pikemen. Through the code a message box comes up asking if you want to upgrade your pikemen and how much it will cost to do so + if there are any other troops that can be upgraded it will ask if you want to upgrade them too. Units must be in a city which makes sense.

Barbs should not appear, except in areas covered over by FoW

They do only appear in FoW. They then sometimes walk into your line of sight and in your city radius? Do you mean they should only appear in Shroud?

AI. It sucks. Post-mod, the AI is much improved, but still lacks that killer instinct to take advantage if it finds itself in a superior position

I agree although it is getting improved all the time

[Martin Gühmann]

Yeah these diplomatic options are missing you mentioned Vel. I am not shur if you can implement them all but it should be possible.

-Martin

[SMIFFGIG]

To King of Rasslin

silly concepts (piracy! space cities!) to keep it going

I dont see these as silly concepts at all, very good concepts, but due to space being un-balanced in the way it was implemented it is no longer in CtP2 which might make u abit happier

don't ever remember losing a city to the AI in CtP

Try Modded CtP2 (as anyone who plays CtP2 should really play) and youll lose a city or three to the AI no doubts

Tech progression is rather fast in CtP

Once again modded CtP2 fixes this problem, Medieval Mod 2 does anyway dunno about Super Apolyton Pack.

Wrestling is real!

Hey! Wrestling is a soap or slapstick comedy


P.S.

diplomacy was very bad

I agree and even with Diplomod which makes it extremely better I still dont think its as good as it could be (note I havent tried the latest version)

[SMIFFGIG]

RE: Playing with the newest version of Diplomod and its good


P.S. Still if those proposals could be implemented would be way cool, there are still strings related to those unused proposals in the cut_str.txt along with a ton of other interesting stuff

[Pedrunn]

3) Lack of upgradeability for troops in the core game. That really blows. And despite all the awesome summary screens, there's no good way to round up all your outdated troops into one central location for disbanding. It's busywork, and in a game that has done so remarkably well at reducing busywork, this seems a glaring oversight.

I already have the code to have a order to do that. And already there is a unit upgrader version in craddle and medmod.

4) Barbs should not appear, except in areas covered over by FoW. Another oversight, IMO, and more of an annoyance than anything. If I go to the time and trouble to ensure that I have no FoW areas in my empire, I should not have to deal with Barb uprisings in firmly controlled areas. Migrations from neighboring states are another matter of course. Dealing with barbs in areas I've already got firmly controlled amounts to more busywork.

They do only appear in fog of war.

+Request break agreements
+Request Nuke Reduction
+Request bio weapon reduction
+Request nano weapon reduction

Arent those already in the game?

+Request they mass troops
+Request Invasion

What is the difference between those two? Couldnt we just force the AI to attack if war is forced to declare with the request "Declare War".

+Request annual gold (as in Civ3)

This would be a nice feature for sure