Mod Wrapup: Apolyton Pack, MedMod and Cradle

[sacjim]

Can someone briefly compare and contrast the two most popular mods for me?

In a nutshell, what's the difference?

I've played CTPII un-modded (once), and with Apolyton so far.

[Locutus]

Well, for one thing, there's a third 'big' mod to consider: the MedMod. The next thing to realize is the age of the mods: Apolyton hasn't been changed in six months or so, so it's really getting old and obsolete. The MedMod had it's last update maybe one or two months ago, while Cradle is still continuously being improved. So in this sense Cradle is the best mod.

Onto what the mods actually change about the game: Apolyton basically only fixes bugs, it doesn't really add new things. A big improvement but IMHO there's so much more that can be done with this game. That's where Cradle and MedMod come in. The MedMod fixes the same bugs but also does a complete overhaul of the tech tree, the units, the terrain, etc and it makes many changes to other things that affect game balance and the way the game plays. Cradle does the same as the MedMod, except that it (contrary to the MedMod) doesn't cover all the ages but really fleshes out the pre-Medieval ages instead (and does this more elaborately than the MedMod), leaving the post-Medieval ages largely identical to the original game. In this respect Cradle starts out extremely strong in the beginning but gets weaker as the game progresses, while the MedMod is solid throughout. All-in-all, I personally find the MedMod the best, but if you are like playing in the Ancient Age, you will probably prefer Cradle. However, many of the choices Wes made for the MedMod are different from Dave's choices (for Cradle) and both versions work out very well so in this respect you get the best results (i.e. the most variety) by playing both mods: half your games with MedMod, half your games with Cradle.

Then there are things like Diplomacy, AI, new SLIC features. In this area Apolyton doesn't do particularly much: it fixes bugs, improves the AI a bit (but not all that much) and (what *is* a major change) makes great improvements to diplomacy. The MedMod once again goes a step further: it improves the AI very much (although the further you get in the game, the weaker the AI), makes the same diplomacy changes as the Apolyton Pack (maybe some extra improvements but not much) and adds a bunch of extra SLIC features (i.e. totally new features that weren't in the original game: Elite Units, Garrison Code, Piracy, Personality Switching, etc, see the readmes for details). Cradle goes even further with this: the AI is even better than in MedMod (and the game is overall much harder, even without the extra hard AI) and it stays fairly strong until fairly late in the game (if you survive that long). The diplomacy is not very different from MedMod and Apolyton but Cradle does add tons of SLIC code, with features such as the Upgrade Code, Wonder Units, Natural Disasters, City Capture Options, etc, etc (again, see the readmes for details). In this respect Cradle wins hands down. Once again, many of the MedMod choices (esp. concerning SLIC features) are different from Cradle but still very interesting. Playing both mods instead of choosing just one would give you more variety, which is always a good thing.

Finally, one point I want to mention that doesn't get mentioned often around here but which IMHO is still very important: polishing. Apolyton doesn't add all that much to the original game: the main change is in the diplomacy. But what is *does* do is polish the original up: fix the most glaring errors and make minor improvements in many areas. Small changes, but they make a world of difference. CtP2 plus Apolyton Pack is really CtP2 as it should have been out of the box (and what it would have been had the designers at Activision had more time). MedMod, although in terms of AI and extra features inferior to Cradle, has one major advantage: it's very polished. Once installed everything works very nice and fluently, there is little maintenance involved and details like the GL, the tech tree, the graphics, the overall atmosphere, etc, everythings looks and feels very smooth and finished. Just click&play...

Cradle, at least in my view, feels more like a construction kit (although it is perfectly playable as it is), or a model plane that has been built but not yet been painted and all the small ornaments are still missing. Examples: the GL entries for the new items that Cradle adds (or at least the history sections of them) are largely missing, there are too many buildings (so if you want to be able to continue to play until after the modern age without problems you'll have to adapt buildings.txt first), some of the graphics don't quite fit in with the rest as well as others, you have at least half a dozen different versions of Cradle to choose from with all different properties (a version with extra hard AI, a version with AIs being friendlier towards each other, a seafarers version, etc), etc, etc. Basically this is not a bad thing. Much of this was even done delibarately by Dave to allow you to tinker with the files yourself and find your own balance, your own combination of options that you like best (and the background and original goal of Cradle also partially explain this: it was supposed to be a platform for ancient age scenarios, not necessarily a new MedMod). However, sometimes you just want to play and not be bothered with any of that; you don't want to continuously be modding the game, you just want to 'experience' it as well. In this respect I find the MedMod superior, that little finishing touch that it adds. The difference is in those tiny little things but they contribute a lot to the overall 'atmosphere' and 'feeling' of the game. Of course, this is by it's very nature a very personal thing and others may well disagree with me but this is how I feel.

Overall, the Apolyton Pack is only good if you don't like changing the original game (with new units, new techs, etc) but still want the most glaring errors fixed and a (somewhat) better AI and diplomacy. Like I said before, it's really CtP2 as it should have been. If you like more radical changes, you'll want to go for what really should be called CtP3: the MedMod or Cradle - both qualify as sequels, albeit conservative ones (since the basic game engine is still the same). Because Wes has a very reserved attitude towards using SLIC code (which I can perfectly understand, esp. since I know where it comes from) and because it's not being actively developed anymore, the MedMod is really falling behind in terms of extra SLIC features when compared to Cradle. The easier text-file settings and the less aggressive AI also make it less challenging than it could have been. So purely by looking at the technical specs, Cradle is the better mod (if things continue as they are, MedMod soon won't even be in the same league as Cradle anymore). But if you hold the polishing element in high regard (which I personally do), I'd say the MedMod is not all that far behind and Cradle only wins by a nose length. Either way, I would advise you to download all three mods and play a couple of games with all three of them. If it turns out you strongly prefer one mod over the others, you can simply always play that one, otherwise you can do like me and continue to play all three mods (due to lack of time I don't play all that often, but still). The best thing is, regardless of what you choose, it doesn't cost you a dime extra...

Edit: fixed the worst spelling & grammar errors (it was late yesterday )
Edit2: slight refrasing of some parts

[The Raptor]

Cradle really extends the game until about 1000 AD.

[sacjim]

Wow, thanks Loc for your analysis of the mods.
I've done Apolyton, so I think I'll try Cradle, then MedMod.
Hopefully I won't crash.
In all the games I've played so far (about 5 I think) I crashed out at the beginning of a turn at some point, and coudn't continue. So I haven't finished a game yet!

[Dinner]

That was the best summary I've see to date. I doubt much more could have been said.

[hexagonian]

Locutus,

Excellent wrapup of the Mods...

Please top this thread, and retitle it to reflect MedMod too.

[sacjim]

Loaded Cradle mod last night.

5 things.

1) Where can I find MedMod? I found Cradle mod at hexagonia

2) In ModSwapper, when I click Start, I get a .dll error. Can't remember the exact msg. However, if I just save the settings, then start CTP2 normally it's fine. Anyone know of this .dll problem?

3) Started a game of Cradle mod, noticed that every turn or two one of the AI civs takes a really l-o-n-g turn. Anybody else notice this?

4) Love how Cradle mod starts you out way back in time, 8000BC

5) I started the game at Medium setting. At 4000BC I'm already 2nd from last out of 15 civs. Egad, I suck. Will the AI be better than the default CTP2 if I play at Easy setting?

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by sacjim
1) Where can I find MedMod? I found Cradle mod at hexagonia

http://wes.apolyton.net

2) In ModSwapper, when I click Start, I get a .dll error. Can't remember the exact msg. However, if I just save the settings, then start CTP2 normally it's fine. Anyone know of this .dll problem?

Don't know, have you installed CtP2 in the default path?

3) Started a game of Cradle mod, noticed that every turn or two one of the AI civs takes a really l-o-n-g turn. Anybody else notice this?

Yeah, its when the AI walks into a goodie hut and gets a unit, there's a delay caused by inefficient exe coding.

4) Love how Cradle mod starts you out way back in time, 8000BC

Hence the name - Cradle

5) I started the game at Medium setting. At 4000BC I'm already 2nd from last out of 15 civs. Egad, I suck. Will the AI be better than the default CTP2 if I play at Easy setting?

Yep.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by hexagonian
Locutus,
Please top this thread, and retitle it to reflect MedMod too.

To quote a famous Dutch politician: At your service...

(Thanx Markos)

[sacjim]

How can I modify CTP2 so that the goodie huts don't give units?
(I'm too impatient to wait for the AI turn otherwise)

Also, I never noticed this happening before I installed Cradle.
Does this have something to do with more complicated AI scripting?

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by sacjim
How can I modify CTP2 so that the goodie huts don't give units?
(I'm too impatient to wait for the AI turn otherwise)

risks.txt (or CRA_risks.txt) has the line:
UNIT_HUT_CHANCE 0.xx
for each difficulty level. Just change the xx to 00 and it will give a 0% chance of getting a unit. Of course you may have to adjust the other chances so they still add up to 1 at the end.

Also, I never noticed this happening before I installed Cradle.
Does this have something to do with more complicated AI scripting?

Nobody knows (cue: twilight zone music) Its probably something to do with the extra units available to the game, and the coding in the exe only dealing with the default number or something silly like that.

[Locutus]

On the CivFanatics forums I outlined a solution for this problem a few weeks ago but unfortunately I haven't had the chance yet to implement it. But hopefully a fix will be available in the not-too-distant future... BTW, the MedMod has the same problem, but I get the impression it's slightly worse on Cradle - heck even the original game has a (very short) delay when a unit comes from a goody hut, it's probably just related to the complexity and size of the tech tree (or the available units, as Ben suggests).

[Dale]

Locutus:
Great wrapup mate.

Just an author's clarification on Apolyton Pack here:

Apolyton Pack makes CTP2 the game that we as a community envisaged the designers were trying to create, but didn't get the chance to due to the plug being pulled. It took the best ideas of the time (6 - 12 months ago) and combined them along with my best SLIC scripts to fix bugs, enhance existing gameplay and try to boost the AI. I believe that at the time it did meet it's goals. But as Locutus states, it is now starting to show its age as better scripts are now available.

[sacjim]

I guess I can live with the 'goodie hut' delay.
Besides, the farther I get into the game, the less often it should happen, no?
Thanks for all your input.

Jim

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by sacjim
I guess I can live with the 'goodie hut' delay.
Besides, the farther I get into the game, the less often it should happen, no?
Thanks for all your input.

Jim

That is correct - the goody huts are cleaned out over time.

One thing I had changed in the last update was to give a 15% chance to get an advance - previously, I had eliminated this freebie. But with the AI infrastructure SLIC working so well, I decided to give this feature back.

This will also give a delay in the Goody Huts, although it does not seem as long as the unit delay.