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  • Call to Power 2: Worth me getting?

    I keep hearing (reading?) a lot of talk about CtP. I bought the first one, but could never quite get into it. Seemed to lack Oomph.

    Is #2 worth taking a look at?

    Better than Civ3, worse? Just different?
    Orange and Tangerine Juice. More mellow than an orange, more orangy than a tangerine. It's alot like me, but without all the pulp.

    ~~ Shamelessly stolen from someone with talent.

  • #2
    if you like to play in the future too, then yes
    otherwise NO
    just buy Civ 3 then
    only good thing is that you can go in the furture

    Comment


    • #3
      Personally I like CTP2. Sure, it's not 100% perfect either, but it does have some very good points. Like:

      - Stack movement right out of the box, and a well made interface, where you can easily add units to a group, remove them, or even move units between groups. (And the AI does the same. E.g., I almost never had to fight one barbarian unit. There's always a stack of at least two.)

      - Awesome combat engine, where my samurai would attack the enemy head on, while my cavalry would flank them, while the archers and catapults provide support from the back row. (The one loophole it DOES have however, is that you can always order a retreat from any fight, so you never lose. But like any other exploit, noone forces you to use it. I decided I'd never retreat, even if I lose, and stuck to that decision so far.)

      - Good diplomacy. It's at least a match for Civ 3's diplomacy, if not better. E.g., in CTP2 you can actually demand that someone reduces their pollution, as part of a diplomatic proposal. Or assymetrical stuff like I give you my map without you giving me yours, AND reduce my nukes, if you aggree to reduce your pollution.

      - A more detailed economic model, where you can tweak exactly how much food do you give your citizens, how high your taxes are, and other stuff. (Though arguably, there was one aspect of that which is kind of silly: food rations worked the opposite way than I'd have expected. Lowering rations actually made your people breed faster, and raising rations caused starvation. Then again, it was well documented both in the manual and in the help, so I guess you can always get used to it.)

      - A clean user-friendly system of public works, instead of 100+ workers cluttering up the screen and making the turns take ages. (It can also be argued though that some stuf wasn't that well balanced, though. E.g., terraforming a mountain into plains wasn't THAT much more expensive than building a farm, as you'd expect. There are mods which take care of that, though, if that bothers you. And again, it would affect the AI too, so it's not really unbalanced either way.)

      - A very good and effective GUI for quickly getting to whichever aspect of your empire you need to see or tweak.

      - Slavery. If you think capturing workers is good, CTP 2 actually also allowed you to use defeated military units or barbarians as slaves. Or raid enemy cities for slaves. Or on the opposite, to covertly free slaves from the enemy empires.

      - A very good mod interface, that supports actual scripting, not just changing numbers. There are some user mods which do very ingenious stuff to CTP2. This is something that Civ 3 likely will never get.

      - Technologies and wonders which IMHO make more sense, and are based on actual research, not a tech tree pulled out of Sid Meier's rear end. In fact, for most units and techs you actually also get a historical info page. Even if it doesn't always match what it does in the game (for balance or gameplay reasons), you can see that someone actually did some research there.

      - More techs, wonders, improvements, and units. (E.g., units based on government type. If you're a theocracy, you can send your priests to convert enemy cities, while if you're a corporate state you can send your lawyers at them. E.g., you can build fishing nets so your coastal cities are actually useful, unlike Civ 3.)

      - Yes, the game actually had technologies and wonders going way into the future. What can I say? I prefer that to researching "Future tech 54" and getting no use for my people out of it. (Yes, I've actually researched THAT far in Civ 3)

      - It has borders, too. (And the AI tends to actually respect them, unless you're at war.)

      - The cities gradually need more and more tiles to harvest from, as their population grows. (So you can end up with either such an aglomerated maps as in Civ 3, OR with few cities but huge ones. Your choice.)

      - A corruption (actually they call it "crime") system that actually makes sense. Sure, it grows as your empire expands, but there are also enough ways to combat it. Among other things, it also depends on your citizens' happines. If you treat them badly (cut their salary and rations, don't build any cinemas, etc) they'll tend to rob you blind. If they have everything they need, they'll tend to be more honest.

      Generally, the most cited bad point about it is the AI. Personally I didn't think it's that bad as such, just not too aggressive. If you treat your opponents fairly, AND have a big stick, they tend to let you be. Then again, I'm one of those who actually goes for cultural conquest in Civ 3, so I don't mind an AI that actually respects treaties.
      Last edited by Moraelin; December 12, 2001, 13:49.

      Comment


      • #4
        Moved -> CtP2 General.

        What Moraelin said

        Originally posted by Moraelin
        Generally, the most cited bad point about it is the AI. Personally I didn't think it's that bad as such, just not too aggressive. If you treat your opponents fairly, AND have a big stick, they tend to let you be. Then again, I'm one of those who actually goes for cultural conquest in Civ 3, so I don't mind an AI that actually respects treaties.
        and we're doing our best to change that.

        Speaking of which, the other major point, a game you can actually make some significant mods for, rather than "Download my mod, the archer has a greater attack power"

        Oh yeah, and a scenario editor.
        Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
        "I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah, Apolyton site has some great scenarios and MODs for CTP2. The only reason I haven't uninstalled it yet ...

          It's a fun game with scenarios and MODs. But out of box - boring as hell!




          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, Moraelin mentioned the most important points.
            The only drawback on CTP2 was the AI.

            In the Future I liked mostly those Ocean-Cities.
            Big Production and a really really huge Space to settle, if you are the first to discover the necessary technologies.
            Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
            Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

            Comment


            • #7
              THANK YOU, Moraelin!

              I once not too long ago started a thread wondering what was different about CTP2 that made it better than CIV3 and CTP. I got a few opinions, a TON of info that was generic to both CTPs, and then lots of ppl just talking about how they hated CIV3. You know, the same as in any other thread in Civ3-General.

              Thank you for finally answering my question. Now I know what is DIFFERENT about CTP2 and not (once again) what sucks about Civ3, I can rest happy. Aaaahhh....
              Consul.

              Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey! I made Chieftain! I wonder how many times I've posted to do that...
                Consul.

                Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Moved -> CtP2 General.

                  Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
                  Speaking of which, the other major point, a game you can actually make some significant mods for, rather than "Download my mod, the archer has a greater attack power"

                  Oh yeah, and a scenario editor.
                  Amen. A-bloody-men. After some attempts at modding Civ 3 myself, I can definitely tell how frustrating it is that no matter how much I want to, there's no way in heck to do anything with that editor, except tweak attack and defense.

                  Even something as basic as renaming the Scout to ANY other name, will cause the game to throw a segmentation fault when trying to build that unit. Not that there's any point to renaming it, since you can't change its animations anyway. (And that is stuff so elementary, that it probably shouldn't even count as modding, compared to what some of you guys did with CTP2.)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
                    Hey! I made Chieftain! I wonder how many times I've posted to do that...
                    30, read the Apolyton FAQ

                    And that is stuff so elementary, that it probably shouldn't even count as modding, compared to what some of you guys did with CTP2.
                    I guess it is modding, but when you could make such vast changes to one game, the joys of fiddling with "THE EDITOR" just looses its appeal.
                    Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
                    "I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      First, someone point me in the direction of a "must have" CTP2 mod, and I'll play it.

                      I liked CTP2 very much, but I only finished TWO games of it before I had that "been there, done that" feeling and was bored. The AI in CTP2 is just awful. No threat to the human on virtually any game. That leaves you with MP, and if you can find someone willing to play a game out from beginning to end, then you've accomplished something. I personally think it can't be done. People just stop playing in MP.

                      Now, if someone could e-mail me with info on CTP2 mod sources, like I said, I'd love to play it again. In many ways, it was superior in design, as is well documented in the original post.

                      The highlights were the future techs, the abundance of military options, the INCREDIBLE interface and masterful Public Works system (still upset Sid didn't employ this). You didn't have to carve all the land up with roads and railroads, and the borders worked great.

                      The original reply mentioned that the diplomacy was better, and sadly, I think this is grossly untrue. I found diplomacy in the game a complete waste of time. As in the prior Civ-style games, once you got out in front of the AI civs, they ganged up on you and reduced the game to a mindless pursuit of military posturing which totally detracted from the experience, to me. I don't find that true in Civ3, which I think has the best (but not perfect) diplomacy ever yet implemented.

                      One major disappointment in Civ3 for me has been realizing how much of a minor evolution it is in the genre. CTP and CTP2 were truly visionary in trying to do new and logical things (not all of which were successful, but they really ADDED to the game). Civ3 is not Civ2, to be sure, but it's much more similar to Civ2 than to being something new. The names have stayed the same, only the paths to victory have changed.
                      I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble. - Helen Keller

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Kolyana, it's simple: if you didn't like CtP very much, then you won't like CtP2 either. I bought and played both, used various mods, and still didn't feel very involved. By contrast, all of the games in the Civ-family draw me in and make me want to play "just one more turn."

                        Even if you can find CtP2 in the bargain bin, don't waste your $5 or your time.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sadly, Civ 3 diplomacy doesn't seem to be all that much better, either. My experience with the game is as follows:

                          I peacefully research and try not to piss off anyone. By 1000 BC already _everyone_ appears as "annoyed" with me in the diplomacy screen. Why? I have no idea. By the time we've moved into the AD range, suddenly the Zulu declare war on me. For no obvious reason. Or some other random Civ. They bring a few allies, I bring in someone who brings more allies, and soon it's a jolly good world war, with everyone fighting everyone. The 1000 year war is just starting.

                          Some random civ of those brought against me, say, the Iroquois would come plead for peace. Fair enough. Their territory is ripe for picking, all next to my capital and whatnot, but wth... I'm already having too much corruption with all those conquered Zulu cities. I say, ok, let's smoke the crack... erm... the PEACE pipe and pretend it never happened. They do however stay "FURIOUS" with me, even though I did nothing outside of self-defense against them during that war.

                          The exact next turn, the exact same Iroquois come and ask me to withdraw my troops from their lands, or face war with them. WTH, ok, sorry, I'm retreating them towards the Zulu border right now. But since they also have some two dozen troops that don't move from MY lands, I ask in return "Withdraw your troops or declare war!" Gee, who would have guessed... They declare war. Didn't they just ask to be spared one turn ago? This time I make peace with the Zulu (who only have 2 cities left anyway), and make a point of hunting down every single Iroquois settlement.

                          A few turns later, comes Japan, the Civ that was my ally against the Zulu. (And which wiped out most of the Zulu cities while I was still building my army. Thanks, Japan.) They make me a proposal: "Give us Gunpowder or we'll destroy your puny civilization." Ha! Puny? Last I checked, I still have more cities than you. I answer "Take your empty threats elsewhere." Gee, whoda thunkkit? Japan just declared war on me.

                          I still have the offensive units that I used against the Zulu around, so I take half the Zulu cities back from Japan. And wipe out the hordes of samurai sent to take them back. Then I plead for peace. I mean, wth, I'm already so far in my march to East that I'm getting 1 shield and 1 coin in every of those cities. You guessed, Japan stays "furious" with me.

                          A few turns later, Babylon declares war on me for no obvious reason. And they had already brought three stacks of troops right across my border, near one of my cities. So they attack in the same turn, and I spend 5 minutes just watching waves of suicidal attacks on my Riflemen inside. (My mistake. I should have upgraded them to Infantry.) They're not even neighbours with me or anything, so WTH? Who pissed in their cheerios? Incidentally, their troops are in India's teritory, which doesn't seem to mind it, but does protest when I march my troops through their teritory towards Babylon.

                          And since I've just upgraded to Cossacs during the war against Zulus and Iroquois and Japan, and have two or three dozen of them fortified around, I do make a point of bringing them all by railroad and wiping Babylon out as a country. Gee, more corruption for me.

                          Three turns later, I see a massive landing, Normandy style of some other civ on the same continent tip where Babylon used to be. Converging on one of my newly conquered cities. Combined with a task force coming on land, through Indian teritory again. Did India open an "attack Moraelin" travel agency, or what? Sure enough, they declare war only when some 4-5 units are right next to the city again. I still have those Cossaks around, so I scramble to wipe out the rest of their mongolian hordes of archers and warriors before they can get near that city and swamp them with sheer numbers.

                          I ask for peace after I've had my fun. You guessed, one more civ that'll stay furious at me for ever, even though this time I didn't bother going after their cities.

                          So please don't tell me there's that much more to do than military stuff in Civ 3.

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                          • #14
                            another perspective.

                            In one of my games...i tried to start a war (someone else other than me). No one would. Had some of the most aggressive civs too.

                            In the end...i had to spend @9 x 156 o on failed spy attempts before russia finally had enough and declared war.



                            Its different every time...and that's good.

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                            • #15
                              This agressivity comes from the strange theory behind all the Civilization diplomacy since the first one : the more powerful you are, the more agressive the others will be against you. Though you'll be attacked too if you're too weak and they consider you as easy prey.
                              Guess some people just like an agressive AI.
                              Science without conscience is the doom of the soul.

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