don't construct buildings in ur towns! build public work first

[Bed23]

i have seen here and there in the forum people who are builing university on town of 10 or 15!

baaad idea

i explain

have u tested the difference of science output between an academy and a supermarket improvement? or a improved farm VS a granary?

tile improvements have an efficiency very far away from the buildings improvement! it's cheaper than the town improvements and better!

maybe if u play as medium or hard construct building first might be good but i dont think it will be sifficiant on hardest level

so my opinion is to put public work at 50% all game long(only when u are not building wonders) and some times, when u are not at war around 70 or 80%

considering the tile improvement to build: i try to favorise first the trade

of course if u have empty queue u can build some improvement(if ur cities are enough defended and that u cannot make other trade route) but the granary and academy for exemple will be built only around 10 and university around 20 while ur tiles around the city will be full of trade improvement


for exemple i can rise around 200 or 300% the science output of a citie only by putting some port and supermarket on its tile! comparing to the 10% output of the academy...

think about it and give me your opinion please

[Dale]

If CTP2 is like previous civ-type games, then a granery is a MUST-BUILD first city improv since it halves how much food is needed to grow. Granerys and recycle centres are the only two improvs I definitely rush buy. Put them down as quickly as possible is my theory. I haven't read the manual yet so I can't know for sure if a granery works like this, but I always build a granery ASAP. Plus, it supposedly stops starvation (though I've never had starvation in a city under 30).

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

[Bed23]

granary was a must build in other viv, not now, it make only 10% more food! but a far and thats 20 or 30% more food that u ll have for very litle towns(under 5)!

and while u construct ur granary ur defense are poor...

concerning starvation i never had stravation in ctp1 or 2! it's simply impossible since i allways had food slide at the lowest

recycled center and other polution improvements are important ur right... when they are needed

[Alpha Wolf]

Under the new production scheme, you need alot of tile improvements. A single improvement has little to no effect on a city. On a city of size 1, that farm is worth 1/6 of 5 food. Not to mention that PW affects every city. So if you are trying to build a wonder, then you are handicapping that city.

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History is written by the victor.

[phoenixcager]

Thanks for the advice, Bed23.

What about defense-related buildings?

Is it important to build a city wall or ballista early in the game?

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phoenixcager
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of the the Civilization Gaming Network. Visit the CGN Forums
[This message has been edited by phoenixcager (edited January 05, 2001).]

[Bed23]

alpha> i said to put 50% only when no wonder building
but i build few wonders, only the very important ones, but when i do it i put 0% and often rush buy

pay attention to this: dont put 50% PW in the early game, made it only when u have achived republic
I play like this:
before republic: no building improvement, % PW and hoplite and archer in each cities and setlers, settlers, settlers, settlers... AND a town where u can build ramayana and pyramid
after rep: PW at their max(often 50% but sometimes 70 or 80%) and i soon as i got port i put port everywhere
i got new tech at the rate of 1 each 2 or 3 turns (impossible difficulty) at the beginning then 3 or 4 turn later until u got emocracy and so on

phoenix> i never build them at the begining but if u got some enemy slavers it could be interesting but could not.
Explanation: i prefer have 3 or 4 units instead of 2 and a city wall: better defense and best way to destroy the slaver!
When u have an attack of the slaver find it with ur troop(slaver can't take cities so u don't need to let even one unit in ur city)the AI is so stupid that it let it near the city and very often in the direction of its empire so u can find it easily and destroy it with only a warrior

so balista and city wall are not needed in the early game: what u need is a big number of towns and a BIG PW as soon as u got port or supermarket tile improvements

[down th' pub]

Everyone has to confess this is a revolutionary idea.

I've just found time to do the math, based on what I could remember from that great thread I couldn't find!

So a size 1 city based entirely on grassland (or terrain that produces 10 food on average per tile)
Base: 38.33
w/Granary: 42.17
w/(1.5) Farms (so the cost is the same): 40.83

With a size 6 city (again average food production 10 per tile)
Base: 105
w/Granary: 115.5
w/Farms: 120

But as the city gets larger again the value of the granary begins to come back, as it also boosts production of workers in the second ring of tiles, whereas the farm stays where it was put!

So I'm thinking turn PW to 0, build cities & basic defenses, then turn PW way up to get cities to a middle size quickly.

There are obvious downsides, but hey it has made me think things through for my next game.

*all calculations done off the top of my head on the back of a book of matches.

[down th' pub]

Oh yeah, and doesn't this reduce pollution too?

[Bed23]

down> what r u talking about?? where did u see that values? all ur numbers are wrong lol

first: grassland make 15 foods no 10(but the situation is so rare... take plains instead: 10 foods)
second: farm makes 10 foods and 20 for an advance one
third: i never build farms, they are useless, build supermarket and ports! since the point in CTP2 is the science output, u must focus on it(the difference of growth is ridiculus when u got ur food slide to the minimum so dont focus on leveling that)


to finish, i dont say: never build a granary
i say dont build granary and other improvement at the begening they are useless comparing to units and settlers and i add: after the begining prefer tile improvements to building improvements

do u see my point of u?
(make again ur calculation if u want but concerning science output the difference is so huge(200 or 300% more science output for my civ with port and supermarket) that u don't need to calculate it

[down th' pub]

Ah yes...

Did I say Grass - I really meant plains, sorry, because they produce an average amount of food.

I used 1.5 farms as at 200 each the cost is the same as a granary.

The arithmetic is the same whether you focus on commerce, food or production. However the science improvements are generally more expensive than the food ones and as commerce is less readily abundant (huge generalization) than food then the advantages of this tactic are more pronounced. It is still true to say that improvements are more advantageous in larger cities, something you alluded to in your original post.

I do agree with you that scientific develpment should be a primary objective, as it was with Civ2 and SMAC, after all if you have tanks 50 turns before everyone else, well let's just say it helps!

As for the rest I agree entirely, and I'll work on the numbers and get back to you.

Cheers!

Oops - bad spelling.
[This message has been edited by down th' pub (edited January 06, 2001).]

[down th' pub]

OK this got complicated, because...

these numbers depend on your science tax rate, the number of city improvements and their cost to maintain.
Then I thought an academy costs to maintain (so I ignored that).

So I decided to factor none of this in, I'd rather play than do math. (I just remembered why I used food before)

So just to clarify base commerce production, Academy, Outlet Mall(1 of each - the cost is similar), science assumed to be 100% (the ratios would be the same).

Size 1; Base 38.33, Academy 42.17, Mall 41.67
Size 6; B 105, A 115.5, M 125
Size 10; B 158.33, A 174.67, M 178.33
Size 15; B 225, A 247.5, M 245

Added perk of tile improvements - you can build more than one.
Added per of both - compounding.

My head hurts now, Bye.

[MrLeN]

ROFLMAO!