Let me just say this...

[mosquitodriver]

hey mark, im not sure if you mistook what i said about the airplanes and catapults thing.

in ctp2 you cannot take a city with planes. My planes were leading an attack to whipe out some city units so that my few ground units could take the city after that battle. in ctp2 airplanes are awesome and cheap. but you know what, so are catapults.

you all will realize that a catapult is not only one of the best units in the early game but it can give your modern units hell too.

hey i wonder if i can load a nuke on a catapult? or maybe i can sink an enemy battleship with a catapult? wow i figure if a catapult can shoot down my planes, it can do all sorts of stuff right?

the bottom line is the combat system is better than ctp1 but if you all dont realize it still needs some work then your getting paid by activision or something. kinda like how the lawyers for al gore get payed to do his dirty work.

you all catch my drift?

[Alpha Wolf]

didnt you hear? There's been a recount and the dirty work was actually only slightly soiled.

[Celestial_Dawn]

Heh, time to weigh in on this long and interesting (kind of) thread.

quote: Originally posted by David Murray on 12-09-2000 03:26 PM I should also mention at this point, I've never understood why people hated CTP1 so much. It was a little buggy, but I liked it. It was a damn good game. So I expected big things from CTP2.

Errr, you actually liked CtP1 out-of-the-box? Or post-mod? Because if you did, it's kind of funny you're arguing with MarkG over the points in the rest of your post ...

quote: The interface is NOT an improvement, it's mearly been made much more complicated. The gaming press's obsession with saying the new layout is miles better is simply stupifying.

Hehe, you're not the first one to have made comments about the interface Yes, for the record I hate it too. Can't a "build queue empty" automatically have a popup? Those are useful!

quote: How come when I was attacking an Irish city with an artillery, a fortified pikeman (and only him defending this city) reduced my artillery to the last point of red energy, from an erstwhile state of complete health. So, pikes can cut through armoured vehicles and stave off artillery rockets can they? Oh yeah, how very realistic.

Surprisingly enough (to those who know me), I'll have to disagree with you here. The Artillery's job is to ummm, bombard. You should bombard the city, not hit it head on, because its ranged attack is different from its close combat attack. I bet a legion could do some serious butchery on a bunch of cannon if it got close enough to actually do serious sword hackery.

Plus the graphic for the Artillery is wrong, all wrong. It should be the same as that Artillery you get with Machine Tools in Civ2, not a picture of Mobile Artillery, which are armoured, self-propelled units. I mean, think about it, how did you ever get Mobile Artillery before Tanks? In CtP2, you get Artillery like 15 techs before Tank Warfare ... Whichever moron did the picture matching (or unit balancing) deserves to be taken out and shot - this is the whole reason why you're *****ing about Artillery losing to Pikemen. Just think of it as the horse-drawn, wheeled type, and it makes a bit more sense, especially if you're not bombarding ...

First thing I'd fix if I were making a mod, that's for sure. Not only is the picture wrong, but they gave the Artillery unit Mobile Artillery stats - Damage 3, Movement 2, when it should be more like Damage 2, Movement 1.

Just keep in mind Activision historically has never had its act together on the design side ... CtP2 is better though, but some things still slip through ...

quote: And I also seem to remember reading in the previews, that it was possible to trade food between cities. (Ever heard of food aid programs?)

I think this can be done with the new, improved version of SLIC. Suggest you keep a close eye on upcoming mods. Why it isn't there out-of-the-box well, it really sounds more like a user custom-designed feature than anything else, that's why ... (oh great, I'm defending CtP2 now ... well, seriously - it's not a bad game if you think of it as CtP1 as it should have been when it was released ... err wait no, people actually paid $$$ for CtP2 ... so I guess I'll shut up)

quote: But then I realized, this is just a glorified version of CTP1. I have basically wasted £30 on a slightly more elaborate diplomacy system and some new units, to the old game I had called CTP1. What a waste. And I will know not to trust Activision again, building up their game, then seemingly not delivering on what the previewers said they would deliver on.

Hehe. Sorry, inside joke It's really a matter of who to trust

Well, I'm sure this game will be modded soon enough, so perhaps your 30 pounds won't go to waste after all. But you are right to point out that your money went to a company that has only done a superficial overhaul of CtP1. CtP1 + mods > CtP2. It really should have been called CtP 1.5, and should have been sold as an add-on pack.

Maybe everyone should start pooling their money for gift certificates for the CtP2 modding squad :P

quote: It's just ridiculous. But oh well, there are better things to do than play games. :P

Dear me, like work :P
[This message has been edited by Celestial_Dawn (edited December 11, 2000).]

[Osco]

Have a look at whats going on today between the Palestine’s and the Israelites...... sticks and stones against artillery and tanks and there holding out just fine. I think this david Murray is a bit out of touch with reality... an army of footmen could take out artillery with ease.

[mosquitodriver]

sure sure, i agree with cd on the artillery issue, but what do you have to say about the airplanes and catapults i wrote about earlier? i figure maybe thats the airplanes with paper covering and they go 50mph and fly really low and have one little gun. So the catapults have an actual chance to , should i say "rock their world" hehe, what a joke.

all in all as i play this game i like so many of its features but i gotta tell you all something. This game is the most predictable (in terms of a1) and easiest civ game i have ever played. YOu literraly cannot lose and you never lose cities to riots or anything. the leader could be hillary clinton and the people will still like you and not riot, oh um, maybe thats realistic.... hehe

ctp1 with patches and mods is better game than ctp2 out of box i say, for now!

oh by the way is anyone else unable to play multiplayer???? it wont ever connect me to lobby, is it my computer or is everyone having the same prob???

[Grumbold]

The artillery example does seem straightforward, because of CtP2's insistance that every ranged unit must have some front rank protection. Perhaps if the artillery started round 1 with a ranged shot before the enemy quickly advanced upon it and put to the sword it would be clearer. It does seem that the artillery is intended to represent every ranged attack method after Napoleonic times so it is confusing to be presented with an armoured halftack vehicle before the advent of tanks. A shame that the number of units (and tech) was not still broader to avoid this confusion. On the whole though it does promote the use of combined arms tactics because a well balanced but outdated force can and will defeat a poorly balanced set of modern ones.

The worst failings of the combat system are in the need to force a result hence the fighter v fortified catapult scenario - neither should score an outright victory but the system won't allow for an inconclusive draw. I was also fuming when a simple city attack was foiled because the 2 defending artillery slowly blew me up as a seemingly endless supply of coracles(!!) were allowed to feed in and act as front-line blockers. Ranged attackers really should expend part if not all of their attack on the opposing ranged units, and ships should only feed in when all the land units have been dealt with.

That said, I was surprised and pleased when Fascism appeared as an option before many modern technologies and democracy. While it may not be strictly accurate I felt it suited the aggressively expansionist colonial period quite well. There was a strong tug to switch to this government type just for the extra city management potential, and the relative strength of the fascist unit was tempting too. All in all, each period in history seemed to take longer (well, maybe not too surprising considering the number of extra turns involved) which allowed for a more gradual transition from ancient to modern. Even getting out of tyranny seemed to take ages. Either I was unlucky or the number of goody huts giving science has declined markedly.

If anything drives me away from CtP2 it will be the pollution system. I could live with dodgy mayors and wobbly AI (Mod's will hopefully appear for those) but having cities burning squares when they barely have a single operable mine and acres devoted to wildlife reserves drives me to distraction. A little bit of carbon monoxide does not render miles of farmland uninhabitable or destroy railways and roads. If anything is going to promote unnecessary railroad building it is the need to avoid network severance due to a pollution hit. Still, since building farms seems completely pointless after the first couple perhaps it is a way of using up all those spare PW's. Makes it very much harder to spot and eject roving special units though. I like my checkpoint squares with a fort, army and spy sitting on the only rail connection surrounded by dense forest, mountain or marsh.
[This message has been edited by Grumbold (edited December 11, 2000).]

[David Murray]

LOL

"Palestine are doing just fine"

Are you being serious?!

The Israelies are massacring them! I know that out of the more than 300 hundred who are dead, the overwhelmingly majority are Palestinian. Did you know that?

The better-armed Israelies are wiping out the Palestinians big time with tanks, planes, etc, I think if you don't realize that then you're perhaps you're the one out of touch here. You also forget that the majority of causlties inflicted by Palestinians are by mob rushes on very small numbers of soldiers, and the Palestiains also have some guns (but not many).

The perfect picture of war--innocent children being murdered by a superior military force who are commiting the kind of genocide the West bombed Milosevic for. But then, Milosevic was a socialist, so I guess that makes him extra evil in the US's eyes. But let's leave the politics out of this, huh.

Celestial Dawn...I agree on the most part...the combat system isn't my number one concern, it's just the thing that people picked up in my original post.

That said, I look forward to the food aid mod, and I am hoping maybe the diplomacy might be upped. But that's not likely.

Finally, the auto unit upgrade thing would really make my day. So, if anyone wants to create a unit upgrade mod, I'd be eternally grateful.
[This message has been edited by David Murray (edited December 11, 2000).]

[mosquitodriver]

If anything drives me away from CtP2 it will be the pollution system.


i disagree there, one part of ctp2 i really like is the polution system. REason is first of all its a good hurdle to overcome via careful city management, it tests your patience and gaming play. In the later parts of the game, due to the fact this game is soooooo fricken easy because a1 is weak. pollution is the only thing keeping you from running away in boredom because you have to manage your huge cities and incorperate new inventions to stave off overcrowding and production funkiness. overcrowding leads to big pollution just look at mexico city and old singapore and many of the chinese cities to name a few. Look at new york city of old and then now. production obviously leads to pollution need i say more. the fact is i think the pollution system is one of the best parts of this game,i dont see much need for tweeking. activision needs to focus on its recounting of votes for new mayors, and talking to bill clinton about getting rid of the gays out of the combat system. catch my drift huh huh?

pollution ok, trade system ok, borders ok,

diplomacy needs help, combat system needs help, mayors need help, al gore needs help.

just to name a few

[Tilemacho]

Whaaaaou....!!!!!!!

...CD is back!!!

I think most of you comparing CTP2 with CTP1 do the mistake to think of CTP1 + mods...

I think CTP2 has many new great ideas but is (as CCTP out of box) UNBALANCED...(because it was rushed to reach the market before Christmas)

BUT...if we make sure CD and WesW work together the game will be perfect in a few months...(I only hope not before end of February...otherwise bye bye exams... )

The only thing we need Activision now is the bug correction and the PBEM feature!!!

Please Activision give us PBEM ! I can't wait to play "Slamps accelerated start PBEM" once again...


[This message has been edited by Tilemacho (edited December 11, 2000).]

[David Murray]

"al gore needs help"



Unfortunately when you're faced with a crucial state governed by a candidate's brother who coordinates a clandestine campaign to keep you out of power, including disenfranchising many people who'd vote Democrat, you're a little beyond help.

[Grumbold]

I know I can turn pollution off completely, but that would be equally ludicrous. I would like pollution to be distinguishable from nuclear fallout, is that too large a thing to ask? Pollution makes crops fail and kills people, undoubtedly. I would expect it to damage food production in polluted tiles and reduce city growth. It does not destroy tile improvements like railroads. Indeed, a high density of railroads and pollution went hand in hand until the later part of this century. It is something I see as very poorly handled in CtP2 which is going to be much harder to fix sensibly than the AI problems because it needs a different approach.

[kabouki]

Hi,

Sorry Mark but if the solution to the pollution problem is to turn off pollution ... then er... that would kill the interest in the game ... after all the most ambicious victory is the construction of the Gaia Controller.....

I can't understand how you keep discussing the older vs newer units issue. Reality can't be exactly imaged in a game, you have to make compromises, and if you don't like the balance edit the units.txt file it's very easy to modify everything.

Oh ... perhaps I'll make a mod to make the automatic upgrade of units. I haven't yet the "official" (does anyone knows when it will be available?) slic documentation, but I am digging on the game files and finding the available functions, so ... perhaps ...

Oh... by the way ... nobody made a comment on my proposals for modifications ... I kinda like the Fame rating for cities ... that could even drive imigration ...well ... I believe nobody liked the idea

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold on 12-11-2000 11:55 AM If anything drives me away from CtP2 it will be the pollution system.

you can turn it off at the beggining of the game

[Big Dave]

Hopefully pollution can be changed in a mod, in addition to everything else.

------------------
Big Dave

Do the Vatican police speak Pig Latin?

[mosquitodriver]

i like the fame rate idea, it has potential because one part of civ games that needs work is the conquest of other lands.

it seems once you take another city it is easy to just encorperate it into your empire. that is contrarty to world civilization history and perhaps people can find ways to make it more realistic in the game play.

good effort on fame rate idea