feat of wonder: the discovery of gunpowder

[meriadoc]

I have always considered the discovery of gunpowder, by anyone, to be important. True, it does not seem to be as important as circumnavigating the globe.

However, when you consider that the first nation to discover gunpowder has a significant technological advantage until people start to learn how to properly defend against this new weapon I think it becomes more important.

I mean let's face it, in real life when gunpowder was first discovered, most other people discovered that their defenses were suddenly inadequate and their weapons were obsolete - thus the "Feat of Wonder."

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The Electronic Hobbit

[Daniel Frappier]

I always wanted something similar for the discovery of Iron. It had a conparable impact in history as gunpowder but was never that important in Civ II or CTP I.

[Paulypav]

I love these so-called "Feats-of-Wonder". Do we know if there are supposed to be more of them.

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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

[Chris Horscroft]

I'd say discovery of gunpowder (or at least, its use in fire-arms) was more significant than circumnavigating the globe. Firearms would have to have been the main factor in allowing Europeans to dominate the Americas, India and China where long establiushed civilisations were overthrown in the space of only a few decades, and usually by small groups of adventurers/colonists.

It really is a balance issue how much advantage to give to the discoverer. I'd say they should get 25 turns or until another civ gets it, whichever comes first.

But perhaps as soon as a firearms equipped unit is defeated in any battle by a civ without firearms, the battle-winner should be given firearms automatically - that would force some caution on the part of the more advanced nation! (Don't think it would really work, but nice to think about)

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by Daniel Frappier on 10-29-2000 11:56 AM I did not wanted my remark to sound negative, what I wanted to know in fact was: Is it you that took the liberty of calling that gunpowder thing a feat of wonder or is it Activision ?

look at the screenshot(url in my first post) for the answer

quote: Just curiosity in any case it doesn't matter what the features is called.

that was exactly the point i was trying to make. sorry if sounded to harsh

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Any civilization without gunpowder is EXTREMELY disadvantaged against any civilization that has it. Merely being in contact with gunpowder doesn't mean you can get it automatically. The American Indians were in contact with Gunpowder Civilizations for almost 400 years (1500 to 1900, approx) and no Native group ever developed the ability to manufacture their own small arms or ammunition. Both the Indians (American) and the Zulus defeated gunpwoder-equipped forces (Little Big Horn, Rosebud, Ishandhlwanna) and none of the victories gave them the ability to effectively use the firearms they captured. So, getting gunpowder first should give you an advantage against everybody, which seems to be the gist of the Feat of Wonder cited in the screenshot, but in addition any non-gunpowder force should get a minus modifiers to the combat calculations against a gunpowder-armed force.
The same isn't true of the discovery of Iron. Iron working was known as far back as the time of Homer, but Homer calls it "the common (base) metal" because while it was used for tools and implements, bronze was still used for weapons and armor. Reason? Unless you have good quality control, too much smelted iron will be either brittle enough to shatter, or too soft. It took a long time for the techniques of working iron to be constant enough to completely supplement bronze - even late Roman Empire armor (1500 years after iron was first used!) included bronze or brass pieces. The real immediate effect of Iron Working is to make metal tools and equipment available to a much wider selection of the civilization, because iron ore is much more widely spread than the tin and copper that comprise bronze: once you know how to work it, iron is much cheaper than bronze or brass...

[Nikolai]

quote: Originally posted by Chris Horscroft on 10-29-2000 11:56 PM Firearms would have to have been the main factor in allowing Europeans to dominate the Americas, India and China where long establiushed civilisations were overthrown in the space of only a few decades, and usually by small groups of adventurers/colonists.

Eh, Chris; Actually it was the Chineese who invented the gunpowder, the europeans just refined it. China could have resisted the europeans if they just had tried to make more out of the tecnology.


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Who am I? What am I? Do we need Civ? Yes!!
[email]birteaw@online.no[email]

[Chris Horscroft]

Thanks Diodorus, I'd forgotten about the Zulu defeats.

OK, I withdraw the idea about giving conquerors of firearm-equipped forces gunpowder! I only proposed it as a balance issue.

Nikolai, your point is correct, and I agree with it, and that is why my original post said that it was firearms that gave the advantage to the Europeans. (I also said that it was the use of gunpowder in firearms that was more important than circumnavigating the globe).

Unfortunately, CTP gives you musketeers when you get 'gunpowder'. The advance should be called 'firearms'. Otherwise, it sounds like the feat of wonder, and its effect, is about right

[samurai]

At first I thought the idea was great, but now I don`t know.One of the greatest things about civilization is that everyone finds their own way.Someone likes it scientificly, others productively and others like fighting.If this feats of wonder makes it better to go one way instead of the other, then I don`t like it

Thats what I like about the discovering feats of wonder. It doesn`t give advantages for your way of "civ life" like an advantage with gunpowder would make for the ones who like to fight.

The solution to this would be to have a lot of these feats of wonder. Lets say that in CtP gunpowder and Age of Reason gave different advantages.Two sciences it took about the same time to discover, but not the same sciences you needed to get either gunpowder or Age of reason.

[Slax]

It seems to me that trying to perform all the Feats of Wonder would be a pretty poor tactic, unless they all had enormous advantages.


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Light the fuse!

[samurai]

quote: Originally posted by Drakenred on 11-01-2000 12:16 PM although to a degree even the Tec trees tend to have that "do things in this order for the best chance of succes" feel to them. Drakenred

This was what I ment to say was nececary to avoid with the feats of wonder.

But don`t agree with you though. Just somewhere in the middle of the tec tree that everyone does about the same.
Think its more like that with the governments.Everyone following the same governments

[Drakenred]

quote: Originally posted by Slax on 11-01-2000 01:06 PM It seems to me that trying to perform all the Feats of Wonder would be a pretty poor tactic, unless they all had enormous advantages.

I ment more along the line of an advance that already gives you one advantage in combat when you discover it first that abruptly gives you a secondary advantage (FoW) while your overhauling your military to take advantage of the new tec(Granted i dont have a problem with this specific FOW negating some fortification bonuses, in the realworld the introduction of new wepons often negated existing defences untill they could be replaced or overhauled) basicaly if you get Gunpowder, you already have one set of advantages just from the new units posible with Gunpowder. Now the FIRST person to get Gunpowder gets a combat bonus on TOP of that bonus. Granted that the bonus only ocures when you least lickly to take mutch advantage of it,(most ground units only move 1-2 over undeveloped terain)

[Drakenred]

quote: Originally posted by samurai on 11-01-2000 02:07 PM Originally posted by Drakenred on 11-01-2000 12:16 PM although to a degree even the Tec trees tend to have that "do things in this order for the best chance of succes" feel to them. Drakenred

This was what I ment to say was nececary to avoid with the feats of wonder.

But don`t agree with you though. Just somewhere in the middle of the tec tree that everyone does about the same.
Think its more like that with the governments.Everyone following the same governments