Wonders o' the world... the root of all evil?

[TheLimey]

I was just thinking about the singular reason for jumping ahead or falling behind of the AI in every single game of Civ, Civ2 or CtP, that I've ever played... Wonders of the World

Does anyone really think that wonders are wonderful anymore... after a few dozen games? To me, and I might be a little cynical but, they are just another very expensive city improvement that costs no maintainence, 'breaks' the game balance for a while before going obsolete.

There are too many of them... and usually the most productive civs (like 2 or 3) gain most of them anyway... making them seem even more ordinary (ho hum... another wonder), and unbalancing.

What to do?

Play without wonders? Maybe, although it might be a little duller, and moves away from the original civ concept, and doesn't recognise the great engineering feats of past civilizations.

Allow any civ to get any wonder? Nope... then wonders will be even more like city improvements

I finally settled on allowing each civ to build one wonder; this achieves two purposes; it gives a civ personality. For instance, you might retain the Cohort wonder, giving that civ a Romanesque feel. Since there isn't a production race, there isn't a winner take it all bonus.

The Wonder could go obsolete at some point, at which time it possibly gets replaced through SLIC with another updated wonder in the same style as the old one, keeping the same personality going.

Not that i'm looking for the game designers to implement these ideas... but they are things that should be included (maybe ) in a 'Play CtP2 as it should be' mod.

Or thats my 2c on the matter, anyway.

[Slingshot]

WONDER-ful idea.

No really, I mean it!

How about this.

- Start Game
- Pick your Civ
- Pick your Civ's attributes
(eg. one of: population bonus, science bonus, military, trade, etc.)
- The bonus (or combination?) is only realized when your civ makes its wonder. That wonder must be guarded with all due care, because it is the source of you civ's enhanced performance.

[wheathin]

You could reach a similar result by having each civ only be allowed to build a certain number of wonders, maybe subdivided by age (you can only build one of each 'set' - one ancient, one modern, etc.) You would want to make a bee-line for the one wonder you want before the AI does, and then you can use it to build your strategy around.

While I have had some games like this in Civ2 and CtP, especially in the early stages, where each civ gets a Wonder at about the same time, those experiences are rare. And they usually ended up being the most challenging games.

This allows that even the slowest civs get a Wonder, unless you're playing with more than 8 players, although that could be solved by a user preference choice at the start of the game ("number of civs?", "wonders per civ?").

It also prevents the lead player from running away with the game. If you're ahead in science, all you get is first pick in the new age. If you want to deny the wonders to other players, you have to crush them.

WOW... I like this idea...

You can only get more wonders by taking them from other civs. If AI civs don't build the wonders, they don't get built - so maybe you don't want to eliminate your enemies too quickly!

If a certain ability seems good, there could be more than one Wonder that has it at the same time - maybe Ramayana, Oracle, Hanging Gardens are all ancient Wonders, each allowing +2 happiness in all cities, but now each must be built by a different civ because no one civ can build them all. This also eliminates the risk of one Wonder advantage (or combo) being too powerful. If Edison's Lab is unbalancing, let there be two (maybe a CERN Wonder), so an AI will get one too! Alternatively, if you allowed maybe 2 Wonders per age, and you build Edison, you'd have to forgo getting London Exchange to keep CERN out of the AI's hands.

Maybe this could be implemented in SLIC in CtP?
[This message has been edited by wheathin (edited June 22, 2000).]

[Harlan]

I really like the idea as expressed by Wheatthin. Picking your wonder at the start of the game doesn't work for me at all. Like the ancient Egyptians are gonna know they'll want the Internet in 6000 years? But a limit to the number of wonders you can build by age, that's the ticket.

Instead of having wonders tend to make the stronger stronger and the weak weaker, the effect would be more even. The amount of wonders allowed per age would depend on how long the ages will be. It might also depend on how many players (imagine if youre playing with 2 civs in a game vs. 9). But the main point is, have a strict limit.

This idea is so good it should go in the standard CTP2 setup, not just a SLIC addon. At least have it as an option when you start the game.

[DiscoveryOne]

I like it! Just a few changes, though. First of all, you want to make sure that if you gain a Wonder by conquering another city, you still keep at least some of its benefits -- a good reason for going to war, and for protecting such cities well. Secondly, I'd allow maybe two or so Wonders per age, with some repetition of effects. Lastly, I'd jack up the number of ages to perhaps eight. (Something that needs to be done anyway, I think.)

[TheLimey]

Yes... the point is that I'm trying to think of something that will be implementable in SLIC, so that we're not reliant upon Activision for what is potentially a one-of-a-kind game balancing idea.

I think that one wonder per age is a better idea, because you HAVE to pick and choose your effect... and in some cases they should be less dramatic than certain current wonders (I.E. London Exchange) A player who picks London Exchange should not get more science than the player who picks 'Oxford University' for instance, so the effects will have to be looked at carefully.

I still maintain one (or perhaps 2 at the most) wonders per civ would make them more wonderful, and players less reliant on tried and true tech paths.

Perhaps the benefits you gain from your 'Lighthouse' wonder will make you go the seafaring route through the tech tree, for instance.

You might even be 'gifted' a specific unit type based on the wonder... so 'Cohort' would give the ability to build Legion, and Pyramids 'Chariots', and Valhalla 'Norse Axemen' and so on.

I think since there will be 8 civs... that you'll certainly need to duplicate some desirable game effect properties, so having multiple Happiness bonus wonders in an age would be a very good idea.

[TheLimey]

I hope you're listening MrOgre/StSwithin ... this seems to be popular and if i'm not mistaken not too complex to implement idea; a limited wonder (per age) option in the game creation.

I agree with your ideas Harlan.. but why do you think that number of civs should matter so much? Why not still limit them in the same manner, and provided there is a set up option, you could pick what you were comfortable with.

DiscoveryOne... yep... I agree with you... a very well made point. 8 ages though? the game is going to be from 4000BC to 2300AD yes? so what additional ages were you thinking of? Of course, there may already be 8 ages, and we just don't know it yet

EDIT: damn typos
[This message has been edited by TheLimey (edited June 22, 2000).]

[Slingshot]

What if wonders of the world helped everybody out?

For example, a cure for cancer. The major benefit of discovery would be the way other nations look at you. When I say nations, I mean its population and not necessarily its leader. Imagine trying to start a war with the civ that developed the internet. You're people are angry at you because they think this civ is not so bad.

How about a trade wonder that helps everybody out, but gives the builder limited control over the price of trade resources? This way, a nation could maximize the profitability of a resource that it has a lot of.

[St Swithin]

Making it so that a civilization can only build 1 wonder is totally doable in SLIC. You can also create "requirements" which would complete a "wonder" - for example, if the ISP improvement were built in every city, the civilization would achieve the Internet wonder. This can also be done via SLIC.

[TheLimey]

I thought about it in this way;

At some point early in the tech tree or perhaps at the very start have a wonder that will trigger that player getting additional advances, just to allow the creation of wonders, that aren't linked into the tree, at least in a reachable way. Kinda like plumbing

Say the initial one is called ANCIENT WONDER 1

So, firstly, you don't know what the other civ is building, which seems sensible.

So... the AI starts to build it... and completes it, when it does... triggers a SLIC event handler, that removes the dummy wonder from the city, and replaces it with one chosen from a list, programmatically.

The conditions could ensure that the wonder was unique, and perhaps even appropriate to fit in with that players other wonders, if more than one wonder per player per age, is permitted.

Since the dummy wonder was destroyed, the AI may (ok, 'will' rather than 'may' ) think that it needs to rebuild the thing, so the tech that allowed its building should be removed from that player at this point.

One question; at this point you may need to record the progress of the other AI's (and the humans) of the Wonder in question, since its completion however brief may trigger the 'obsolescence' of the other civ's wonder projects; depending on timing of course. Will this be the case?

However, if SLIC 2 works like MrOgre says it will, we may be able to 'overload' or create an 'exception' on the event, so that it aborts the building of the dummy wonder, and achieves all the other effects we're looking for.

At this point, the human is informed of the event, and the AI has its fully operational, and non-repeatable wonder o' the world.

At the turn of the age, the wonders go obsolete, and either at the beginning of the age or at some point in the tech tree of that age, there are more trigger points, more dummy wonders and the whole thing repeats.

===

St.Swithin> Can you see any problem in this set up?

Are there appropriate building/wonder/tech creation and destruction functions in SLIC 2?

Can we decern unit/improvement/wonder production progress with SLIC? And set it to a different value if necessary?

[DiscoveryOne]

Here're my ideas for the Ages of humankind:

Ancient
Medieval
Renaissance
Industrial
Atomic
Information
Interplanetary

The Atomic and Information Ages might be combined, I suppose. Another might be added at the end, as I don't really know what the future will hold in the next 300 years. There might also be a Heroic or Mythic Age added at the beginning.

[TheLimey]

Sounds like a plan to me.

Your idea where the players 'pick' their wonder at the start is fine. The human player should pick one at the start from a list say, and the AI civs get random picks.


Shouldn't be a huge deal to implement in SLIC, unless there are some huge holes in its functionality.

Anyone else like the idea?

[TheBirdMan]

I have one between ancient and medieval.

Call it Age of great migration, say from 200AD to ????

[Sophanthro]

I just thought of something, kinda of dealing with wonders.

In Multiplayer you have the option to exclude any wonder/unit you feel like. This would be nice for single player. Actually it's not to important because you can just take them out using the txt. files. But it would be nice to be able to exclude them in PBEM and Hotseat.

[TheLimey]

The genetic age, that human civilization is taking its first tetering steps into, is upon us now... thats the next age