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**centrifuge** · June 27, 2002, 15:27

Ctp2 out of the box has many flaws, 1st and foremost the weak AI. There are several great mods, Super Apolyton Pack(CTP2 as it should be) Cradle, MedMod2, and WAW. I recomend all of them. Try CTP2 vanilla style first, and then Mod it, you'll understand all of the hard work that some of these folks have put into (and continue to put into) making this a great game.

At $9.95(American) it is definetly worth the buy. (that last sentence seems to be my mantra these days). Have fun, and I hope you enjoy it

**hexagonian** · June 27, 2002, 15:36

Hmmmmm...

Are the people that recommended 'CTP2 Modded' to you players who you give a lot of credence to? That would be the first question I would ask - (more from the point of curiosity rather than anything else).

Make sure you buy it at discount - at least if you do not like it, you will not feel too burned.

Stay away from the unmodded game - that is a given. You will be sorely disappointed with the AI. However, look at the (Modded) game based on its own merits and do not dislike a feature merely because it is handled differently than in civ3. Like any computer game, there are flaws and exploitable features in CTP2 (even Modded), so I can't say that it is perfect. And many of the differences do boil down to preferences, which makes for a weak argument in debating whether one type of game is better than another type of game.

CTP2 is a different animal, based on the use of PW, stacked combat and unconventional units. Also, the city worker system is not the same as in the civ series. Workers no longer work individual tiles but rather work the entire radius. This is one feature that I do miss from the civ series (and CTP1). However, during the course of the game, you will gain access to specialists which somewhat approximates the effect of the city workers and allows for a player to micromanage.

In terms of depth, CTP2 offers many more government choices over civ3 during the course of the game - I would say that SMAC's system probably seems more flexible because you can taylor your government based on the different social choices you can make.

However, within the CTP2 governments you can adjust your global settings of production/commerce/food and also the level of science, so there is some flexability in there. Pay close attention to the city caps because they will vary from government to government (more advanced governments usually have the higher caps, which probably is the driving force behind a lot of the switching).

IMO, CTP2 has a better and deeper tech tree, many more choices for tile improvements, a superior combat model and balanced combat results, wonder movies, and easier access to in-game info (I do miss the civ3 city screen though). If I had to sum it up, its that CTP2 is more streamlined in its concepts. (this can be viewed as a strength or weakness)

Diplomatically and militarily, I do think civ3 has a more focused AI, even over 'Modded CTP2'.

There's no culture or strategic/luxury resources in CTP2 either.

CTP2 Trade generates Rush Buy gold and is useless in the default game (also the Apolyton Pack if it does not have the unit updater code) In CTP2 Cradle, Trade is a necessity, because you will need gold to upgrade units.

Corruption in CTP2 is based on maintaining happiness. You will not get the crippling corruption effects in CTP2 that you get in civ3 - you can take a far-flung city and make something useful out of it. (I do not like the fact that in civ3, your best option is usually razing a city).

Read the topped thread above for a comprehensive breakdown and comparison of the major Mods.

IMO, I would probably recommend starting with the Apolyton Pack because it fixes many of the problems in the default game, while retaining the default units/techs/wonders - so the elements like the poster tech tree included with the game will be of some use to you.

I do like Cradle too, but I am biased

The other three main Mods (Cradle, WAW, and MedMod) rewrite the entire game (adding advances, units, buildings, wonders), and also employ different files and philosophies as to how to accomplish a desired effect, so elements in found in Cradle may not be in MedMod.

Cradle focuses mainly on the Ancient/Medieval ages - at turn 600 you are at 750AD (though it can be played through the future) and also offers options to play a 600/800/1000 turn game. Cradle does start out slower than the other Mods, but this is by design.

MedMod rewrites the entire tech tree. WAW focuses on the 20th century.

And if you don't like a feature or setting, you can always easily change it.

**hexagonian** · June 27, 2002, 17:01

One final thing...

In looking at the things I believe you consider to be important in a game, CTP2 does not offer factions or civs that each have a unique strength/weakness or a unique unit. (Something that is a definite strength of SMAC/civ3). CTP does offer government-specific units (more so in my Mod though), and the civs do have certain personality traits, so they will tend to be more aggressive if militaristic.

IMO, you will most likely find this to be a weakness in CTP2, as your replayability options may be limited. This is not to say that you cannot find multiple strategies/pathways to victory, but because of the somewhat generic nature of all of your civs, there will not be that element of diversity you probably want.

**Immortal Wombat** · June 27, 2002, 17:56

I suspect that you will find CtP2 to be another flawed gem.
Every gamer wants something different out of every game, and no game will ever be able to provide a perfect experience. There isn't much to add to what hex said.
Its a different game. Nuf sed.

The real advantage it has over the others (IMO) is the infinite ways it can be modded, adapted, customised to suit your tastes. On top of all the "fixing" of the game to bring it up to a playable standard, there are many many optional add-ons that can make the game closer to the ideal game than perhaps you can get working with other games as a starting point. But then that is assuming you like the core content as it is (PW, Stacked combat, UI, city management etc...)

Even factions/UUs/CSUs/Civ bonuses can be added if desired.

That's why I love it. But I guess in Candle'bre you get to design your own perfect game, so why patch on to an existing one...

**Martin Gühmann** · June 27, 2002, 18:00

Originally posted by centrifuge
Ctp2 out of the box has many flaws, 1st and foremost the weak AI. There are several great mods, Super Apolyton Pack(CTP2 as it should be) Cradle, MedMod2, and WAW. I recomend all of them. Try CTP2 vanilla style first, and then Mod it, you'll understand all of the hard work that some of these folks have put into (and continue to put into) making this a great game.

At $9.95(American) it is definetly worth the buy. (that last sentence seems to be my mantra these days). Have fun, and I hope you enjoy it

One mod is missing on your list GoodMod: The Mod of Goods

-Martin

**hexagonian** · June 27, 2002, 21:41

GoodMod is an integral part of Cradle - I tend to forget to include it in the lists because of that. But it is also a standalone Mod, and Martin has since updated it to include additional features not currently included in Cradle.

Ben,
How easy is it to create civ bonuses???? That's something I would love to incorporate into Cradle. But you are still busy with the Wonders SLIC, so I won't pester you (for the moment at least).

Vel,
BTW, have you tried EU2 yet???

**Pedrunn** · June 27, 2002, 23:39

The only pourppouse of playing the game unmodded is to know how much work the modders have done.
If you are not interested in that, just start with the (Super?) Apolyton Pack: The fans Patch.
(Note: After patch the game and install the modswapper).
Then go to the radical mods like Craddle, MM2, World at War and Good Mod (although this last one inst that radical) depending on what age you like the most.

**centrifuge** · June 28, 2002, 14:24

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann

One mod is missing on your list GoodMod: The Mod of Goods

-Martin

Yes it is, sorry Martin. I haven't tried GoodMod as a stand alone Mod yet, so I can't make any direct conclusions about it. Downloading GoodMod and taking it for a spin is part of my plan for the immediate future. From what I've read, I'm sure that it is excellant.

**Immortal Wombat** · June 28, 2002, 15:47

Originally posted by hexagonian
Ben,
How easy is it to create civ bonuses???? That's something I would love to incorporate into Cradle. But you are still busy with the Wonders SLIC, so I won't pester you (for the moment at least).

Depending on what you want, probably somewhere between "really simple" and "impossible"

The hardest would be things that depend on buildings being placed (production and food bonuses primarily. Maybe crowding and pollution effects too.) the easiest would be gold, PW, happiness. SLIC stuff. Oh, and of course, CSUs, CSBs, CSWs and whatnot...

**Dinner** · June 28, 2002, 15:51

You folks are forgeting to mention that CTP2 has a fully functioning MP mode while we are still waiting for Civ3's MP. In my opinion this is a strong plus for Ctp2.

**Alex** · June 28, 2002, 16:54

Oh, Mighty Vel wants to try CTP2... we are honored, Vel, and I'm sure you will be able to find some interesting concepts in this game.

As hex said, I'd suggest you to start with the Apolyton Pack (the latest version is the Super Apolyton Pack mentioned by Pedrunn) and then you could try the others.

It would be interesting to read some strategic thoughts from you in the future.

Off-topic: I was participating in the Candle'Bre discussions at the start, but I had to get away from it (and also from the Civ3 demo game) because of a little thing called real life, but I'm willing to join in again as soon as I can.

**Locutus** · June 28, 2002, 17:44

Hi Vel, good to see an old vet like you is giving this game a try!

I don't have much to add to what others have said, (modded) CtP2 is a good game, I'm sure you'll get your money's worth (and quite possible more)...

One thing I'd like to emphasize is that (especially modded) CtP2 has more choices than Civ: much more units, buildings, tile imps, advances, governments, etc than Civ2/3. Of course, SMAC's SE and Unit Workshop are even more flexible but aside from that, modded CtP2 has more choices than any other Civ game.

Be sure to let us know what you think of the game, even if you hate it. We'd love to hear what the Great Master of Strategy has to say about our little gem

As far as mods go: first try to play a bit without mods (the patch can't hurt though) to get a bit of a feeling for the game, then switch to the Apolyton Pack and see how much of a difference even such a conservative mod makes. After that, I would say the best order in which to try the mods would (IMHO) be MedMod, Cradle, WAW, Goodmod. Don't forget the scenarios BTW, especially not the Alexander the Great one, by many described as a game in itself (compliments of Harlan). However, if you can't/don't want to invest that much time/bandwidth quite yet, focus on Apolyton Pack and Cradle. Apolyton to experience the game as it was suppose to be and Cradle because, in spite of fierce competition, it's still the best mod out there (just IMHO of course - but that is coming from someone who invested most of his modding time in MedMod).

**hexagonian** · June 28, 2002, 19:47

Ben

For now, I'm looking for the basic bonuses, and I would like to keep them small...

5% Production, Food, Science, Commerce boosts, possibly a (+1) happiness that would carry throughout the game (this last one may be too powerful though). I'd like to give each civ a bonus of some sort, and this would include both the human and AI civs.

We'll try that and then see where that leads to.

Locutus
Thanks for the plug - you're embarrassing me...

**Immortal Wombat** · June 28, 2002, 20:34

hmmm, they look like they all need buildings in each city. Its possible, but not as elegant.

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