These screenshots are not impressing me.

[Big Dave]

quote: I believe the point is that if there is little visual change evident in the screen shots provided, it implys that the game as a whole is nothing more than a glorified patch. And however many "New" features might have been added, a lot of CTP1's bad features will be carried over into CTP2.

Some time (in another thread) I'd be very interested in knowing what chain of reasoning led to most of that, Kaiser. I've seen Ford Mustangs with the same body style and color but one had a 4 cylinder and the other had an 8 cylinder engine. Tell me because they look the same they'll function the same!

As for CTP2 being a patch, search on my name for the past 5 months for my opinion on that. It's not very flattering to Activision.....

Darth, much of the point of that thread was how to make it so that a nuclear war is NOT the end of the game.

How about the increase in diplomatic options? This was universally acknowledged as one of the major weak points in CTP, the screenshots we've seen show that at least some effort has been spent to try and correct this.

Of course if you're mind is already made up little things like facts won't change it.

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Big Dave

A bad pun is its own reword.
[This message has been edited by Big Dave (edited August 03, 2000).]

[Big Dave]

quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-03-2000 07:48 PM Why do you think they call it M.A.D. anyway? You use the feature and you are toast. I wouldn't go and build your impression of the game around a game-ending feature.

My point here is also that Activision is listening to us and making changes we, the players, suggest. This is not the first time they've done this, either.



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Big Dave

A bad pun is its own reword.

[DarthVeda]

At least when I paid for the ToT "patch" to Civ2, it came with new graphics!

[Big Dave]

Darth,
Have you looked a the Mutually Assured Destruction thread? What do you think about it?

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Big Dave

A bad pun is its own reword.

[DarthVeda]

So what CTP2 so far is, according to you guys, is a fix for all the glaring errors in CTP (minus the cruddy interface) and the addition of M.A.D., a game-over feature, and a few new graphics.

[MarkG]

i dont get it darth....
a sequel is supposed to not to repeat the errors of the first, and to improve where it was good
what exactly is wrong here?

[Big Dave]

quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-04-2000 02:03 AM So what CTP2 so far is, according to you guys, is a fix for all the glaring errors in CTP (minus the cruddy interface) and the addition of M.A.D., a game-over feature, and a few new graphics.

Darth, are you even bothering to read my posts? I ask you ligit questions and you just go off flaming on another tangent, ignoring my post. I've been trying to be polite but I'm about to brand you a troll and start ignoring you.

So, for the third time, what about new features like improved diplomacy, national borders, and expanding city radii? Have you used your eyes or only your "mouth"?

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Big Dave

A bad pun is its own reword.

[BigJ]

DarthVeda,
First of all, the concept 'MAD' basically means that if you launch your nukes, I launch mine. This is NOT a game ending concept. Even in real life it is not except in certain circumstances. All you are thinking about is nuclear war between the U.S. and Russia, which, IF it resulted in a full nuclear exchange, could result in a large part of humanity dying. But even this would probably not result in humanity's extinction. Meteors have hit this planet since life has existed that have made anything we could do totally puny in comparison. I have even read reports that nuclear effects, unless large numbers were used, could be shorter lived than chemical/biological weapons effects, which in certain cases could last for many, many years. In any case, the MAD concept, applied to nations such as India/Pakistan, wouldn't even come close to ending civilization. The MAD concept also comes into play when it is not implemented, as it redefines how the involved nations interact militarily and diplomatically. Why would someone say that such an important concept historically should not be implemented if it can be?
As far as CTP bashing goes, I got upset many times at all the bugs and so on in the early days, as I got CTP when it first came out. But what I noticed was that, thought CTP was released incomplete and buggy, it was nonetheless a quite different game than Civ2. It seems as though you complain about CTP as much because you simply do not like it as because of the flaws. If you do not like the new concepts then say so, that you do not like this or that, perhaps the unconventional warfare units or something, rather than say that they are stupid. As far as the graphics go, I do say that some of them are too 'cartoonish', but maybe some people (not me really) may prefer them that way, so no need to be insulting to the game, just state your likes/dislikes.
Just bashing something does as much good as locking up a criminal for a few years without even trying to convey to them the errors in their behavior. When they get out they will probably go back to the same behavior. Constructive criticism is the way to go, state what is wrong, why, and perhaps what could be done to make it better.

BigJ

[DarthVeda]

I put a lot of thought into this review a while back, which explains my feelings about a great deal of call-to-power's features:

One Here at Apolyton

I did say this though:

quote: If the mistakes of Call to Power can be heeded, and all of the goodies included with the game picked up for the upcoming Civilization III, and eventually Call to Power 2, the 4X genre should witness a new rebirth like has not been seen since the good ol' days of Civ II.

They may have fixed Call to Power's mistakes, but it looks as if they are making new ones (ie copying the art from the original--I have never seen a sequel do this).

Art doesn't make the game but it gives me the impression that Activision is putting in a less than superior effort on this game. It's the only solid thing I have to go on, and it looks pretty shaky.

I might say that these were just temporary graphics, but I know that's not true because CtP2 is going to escape sometime before Christmas (and marketing will stick that down their throats--done or not). That my friends, is too soon for these graphics to be a temp.

Big Dave: Yes I know about expanding city radii, national borders, and improved diplomacy. Now I will tell you the only one that I haven't heard of is expanding city radii. The other two were done first in Master of Orion II (1997--diplomacy), and SMAC (1998--borders). So a game that is two years late on two of the four features that you guys are marking as it's flagship features...

...don't look at me funny if I'm not getting extatic.

My Thoughts on MAD -- Again

Ok, let's look at M.A.D. Say you have the same amount of nukes your oponent does. Let's say around 4-5. Not the end of the world per se. Your 4-5 largest cities will dissapear from the map though....

Now multiply the polution effect x2 on those cities... get where I'm going so far?

Now say you both have a large number of nukes (10 or more). You've gotten into a war you can't hope to win because the pollution alone is going to destroy you. Plus your 10 major production centers are toast. This is why it's called M.A.D. It's a frickin deadlock you can't hope to win, because you aren't willing to sacrafice your poor cities.

Ahh. You say you have SDI? Well if activision programs this right, the other civ should act with incredible hostility if you try to break M.A.D.

See, M.A.D. alone is a crap feature. If they flesh it out with diplomacy, that would be excellent. With diplomacy you could have the other civ get angry at you for building SDI (or even declare war), sign treaties to dismantle nukes, and so on. M.A.D. alone is an awful feature.

[This message has been edited by DarthVeda (edited August 04, 2000).]

[WesW]

Darth, from what I have seen, and I *have* seen some things, all of the graphics in CtP2 are going to be different from CtP1. Whether they all are an improvement or not may be open to debate, but things *will* be different.
As far as gameplay, trade is going to be different, there are going to be new tile improvements and city improvements, and many units will be different.

We have already seen some of the changes to diplomacy and so-forth. Special unit use should be improved.
I think some of the biggest improvements will be "under the surface" stuff like the SLIC2 and AI routines.
The SLIC thing in particular may be the biggest improvement/innovation to the genre in years.

I will be very surprised if the people in charge of this sequel make the mistake of those of the original in ignoring the input of game-testers.
Btw, I love Big Dave's statement that CtP1 escaped rather than being released. I also believe that this was not the decision of the game-makers.

Everything depends on follow-through, but CtP2 has the *potential* of setting the standard for this genre so far ahead of anything currently out that it won't be close in most people's minds. The next few months will tell if this comes about.

[DarthVeda]

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold on 08-04-2000 12:52 PM Graphics are important. They succeed if you can see the action clearly and are visually pleasing. In this respect there was definite improvement from civ1-civ2-ctp. SMAC is a personal choice: I disliked its approach. ToT was a no contest loser. Every unit and terrain type was harder to distinguish than in civ2. For added amusement some distinctly different terrain types in the space set were visually identical. If Apolyton can't find a sensible way to improve the generally very good graphics from ctp then I sincerely hope that they leave them well alone. ToT just proves how all the resources spent rebuilding the entire graphics set can be an appalling mistake. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

Ah yes, but Test of Time wasn't being hawked as a sequel. Only an add-on (admitedly a very expensive add-on).

I believe CtP2 may have a glimmer of potential, but I'm on a strictly "show me" basis.

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-04-2000 03:00 PM Ah yes, but Test of Time wasn't being hawked as a sequel. Only an add-on (admitedly a very expensive add-on).

so, if ctp2 was called an "addon" and was priced as a "sequel"(like ToT), you would be ok with it?

[Grumbold]

Would you like to suggest what it is they could improve apart from the occasional unit? Sounds like you want to see visual differences for no better reason than to feel you got your money's worth. Forget the thousands of hours of effort spent improving the actual gameplay, if the grass and trees are the same shade of green they didn't do a good job??

[DarthVeda]

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold on 08-04-2000 03:32 PM Would you like to suggest what it is they could improve apart from the occasional unit? Sounds like you want to see visual differences for no better reason than to feel you got your money's worth. Forget the thousands of hours of effort spent improving the actual gameplay, if the grass and trees are the same shade of green they didn't do a good job??

I'm just saying don't directly copy from one game to another. I wouldn't want terrain from SMAC showing up in Civ3...

I was thinking that Activision would want to shy away from making this title look like it's predecessor more than associating it to that title.

Markos: Yes, then I wouldn't have to even consider buying it

[Grumbold]

Graphics are important. They succeed if you can see the action clearly and are visually pleasing. In this respect there was definite improvement from civ1-civ2-ctp. SMAC is a personal choice: I disliked its approach. ToT was a no contest loser. Every unit and terrain type was harder to distinguish than in civ2. For added amusement some distinctly different terrain types in the space set were visually identical.

If Apolyton can't find a sensible way to improve the generally very good graphics from ctp then I sincerely hope that they leave them well alone. ToT just proves how all the resources spent rebuilding the entire graphics set can be an appalling mistake. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!