Discussion on more amendments

[mapfi]

Well, when the quorum amendment gets passed, changing the con will become a little easier again. As I said, I have a few ideas.

- Allow judges to also hold an executive position.

- Extend the nomination period to 5 days (the last vote closely failed)

- Put the responsibilities of the MoI under those of the MoDST, then give the responsibilty for science to the president.

Thoughts?

[Gilgamensch]

For the judge:

No. We need to keep it seperate. But they should be allowed to be delegate (officially).

5 days I still would prefer, people more participating..........

And the last one:

Mainly No. The MoI can be later a hell of a job, not as bad as MoD, but a fair amount of work.............

[mapfi]

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
For the judge:
No. We need to keep it seperate. But they should be allowed to be delegate (officially).

Well, honestly there's no difference in someone being a delegate in a turnchat or actually holding the position.

The MoI can be later a hell of a job, not as bad as MoD, but a fair amount of work.............

Yes, but the MoDST doesn't have that much to do and we'd reduce our gov to 4 + 3 positions.

The three porposals all aim in the same direction: to make the game run more smoothly. A position less in our gov will make it easier to fill all of them, allwoing judges to hold exec. positions will allow people who care about the DG to participate more (eg. me) and extending the nomination period will asure better that everybody actually sees that thread (not like now).

[Pedrunn]

- First make the number for the validation of the poll composed of people who has posted here in the last two months.

- Allow judges to also hold an executive position.

Another idea. Why not give the judicial power to only one people rather than three. We can live just with Senior Justice. The senior justice intead of a public hearing thread makes a jury poll to decide what to do with the citizen who is outzide the law. But i am ok with judges with gov. positions

- Extend the nomination period to 5 days (the last vote closely failed)

I was the one who tried the amendment

- Put the responsibilities of the MoI under those of the MoDST, then give the responsibilty for science to the president.

reduce the number of position is a must. But i dont like the mix you are proposing.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

judges as ministers:
this shall not be! its already problematic when a judge acts as delegate. we haven't seen a really problematic case so far (and i hope we don't) but if some time it will happen, we will recognize that we are already mixing up too much to sort responsabilities.

fewer ministers:
can be talked about, but if so i would prefer a general debatte and reports from the ministers so far about their experiences.

nominations (& elections):
why not one week each? this will allow both kinds of people (weekend-onliners and university-/school-/office-onliners; do those words exist? ) to fully participate.

another point:
i would like to change the way the game is played in a rather strong way:
the pres (or someone else if the pres doesn't has time or internet) plays exactly one turn each day and posts the savegame. of course he is free to chat/instant mess. with anybody he would like to while doing so.
this will get us rid of empty turn chats, weeks without anything happening and will bring us closer to a realistic history: the world doesn't stop, because of illnesses, missing cabinet members, legal disputes or whatsoever in one country. sometimes the history of the world is boring for decades, sometimes events go faster than anyone could imagine. those are hard times for democracies (or every other form of government where more than one person has to decide), but they are interesting as well.

[Gilgamensch]

Well, honestly there's no difference in someone being a delegate in a turnchat or actually holding the position.

Yes, there is a huge difference:

A delegate has to follow the ministers orders, whereas the minister makes the orders!

Yes, but the MoDST doesn't have that much to do and we'd reduce our gov to 4 + 3 positions.

The three porposals all aim in the same direction: to make the game run more smoothly. A position less in our gov will make it easier to fill all of them, allwoing judges to hold exec. positions will allow people who care about the DG to participate more (eg. me) and extending the nomination period will asure better that everybody actually sees that thread (not like now).

The five days, I could live with, but still would prefer, that people would be more active...............I actually might nominate myself for I don't know yet, as nowbody is there...........

Reducing the positions: ............

[Gilgamensch]

another point:
i would like to change the way the game is played in a rather strong way:
the pres (or someone else if the pres doesn't has time or internet) plays exactly one turn each day and posts the savegame. of course he is free to chat/instant mess. with anybody he would like to while doing so.
this will get us rid of empty turn chats, weeks without anything happening and will bring us closer to a realistic history: the world doesn't stop, because of illnesses, missing cabinet members, legal disputes or whatsoever in one country. sometimes the history of the world is boring for decades, sometimes events go faster than anyone could imagine. those are hard times for democracies (or every other form of government where more than one person has to decide), but they are interesting as well.

The idea doesn't sound bad, but I would rather suggest every other day, gives the citizens more time to decide.......
And Yes, I think it would speed up the game...............

[Tamerlin]

I agree with Gilgamensch, I don't think a Judge should be allowed to hold an executive position. Should a problem require a judgement and he would be Judge and party in the same case.



I agree the court could be reduced to one Senior Judge... to the condition this same judge is not allowed to hold an executive position.

Your proposal is rather bold Zaphod and would help the game to proceed steadily but IMO the President and the ministers would have to produce a lot of work if we want the citizens to be informed. Each turn, or each second turn, means a report... As far as I am concerned I don't have the time to post a MoDA report each day.

On the other hand, Gilgamensh, playing one day out of two would not speed the game as we would play 3 and half ( ) turns a week... and I really like the turn chats where I can get in touch with and have fun with my fellow Apolytonians...

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

actually it doesn't mean a report every day, only the savegame and reports of gossip, news from the world diplomatic agreements done or broken if necessary, the rest can be done by the free media or those people who want to hold that office next term

[mapfi]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I don't think a Judge should be allowed to hold an executive position. Should a problem require a judgement and he would be Judge and party in the same case.

It's easy to take that into account and replace that judge with the president like in impeachments. Maybe a judge shouldn't be allowed to also be president then...

[mapfi]

Furthermore, when we can't fill our elected positions with people, what's better, a little conflict of interest or the DG not moving forward at all?

Yes, there is a huge difference:

A delegate has to follow the ministers orders, whereas the minister makes the orders!

and in essence the delegate makes the orders himself because the minister didn't give any or not enough -> not much of a difference

[Gilgamensch]

On the other hand, Gilgamensh, playing one day out of two would not speed the game as we would play 3 and half turns a week... and I really like the turn chats where I can get in touch with and have fun with my fellow Apolytonians...

I like it as well (getting in touch) with my fellow Lemurians .
That was mainly a suggestion towards our people here.......
And after rethinking it: who It would only mean 3 1/2 turns per week............plus what do you want to do, if the Pres. doesn't run the turn?

and in essence the delegate makes the orders himself because the minister didn't give any or not enough -> not much of a difference

That is a problem of the active Minister, the delegate shouldn't really make the orders, he should be following the guidelines given by his superior......

Furthermore, when we can't fill our elected positions with people, what's better, a little conflict of interest or the DG not moving forward at all?

That is a good question.............
But because of the possible problems, which could occure, I am still against a mix of government and court..................even as it might not be in the interrest of the game.

[Devil of Truth]

I’m not a great fan of mixing the judicial branch with government. It could lead to serious problems with, for example, impeachments. However, in the interests of keeping this DG moving along, I wouldn’t necessarily oppose this amendment. Just a though: It is a lot of responsibility placed upon a delegate (who wasn’t democratically elected) to hold a judicial and ministerial position.

I think fewer ministers and judges make sense. Our government and judiciary is almost larger than our (active) citizenry!

The period for both nominations and elections should be extended. Five days sound good. A week makes more sense.

Zaphod:
I like you plan, but I think it needs some tweaking. Consider this. We all suffer from the terrible affliction called real-life. If we force a Pres to play at a set speed, it may make the position a lot less attractive. Which would lead to nobody wanting the position...

[Gilgamensch]

DoT,

good point about the delegate, didn't think about this one..........

[mapfi]

Originally posted by Pedrunn
reduce the number of position is a must. But i dont like the mix you are proposing.

What's your idea then? Still giving all MoI to the Pres? I'm not very fond of that mix... Other opinions to this and the mix I proposed in my first post?

To sum some of the discussion up:

-reduce the court to one judge,
why not, but not introduce jury decisions! I'm against this, since the judge's decision can be appealed and I don't want us voting on cases with the low turnout we sometimes have.

-don't let judges hold executive positions
if we reduce the court to one member I'd explicetely forbid that one to be a delegate

-extend nominations and even elections to a week
I just think it's too much time, announce your interest for a position and wait up to two weeks to actually get it, so still prefer 5 days each.