ELECTION: Minster of Diplomacy, Science and Trade

[Immortal Wombat]

Bloody hell, the threads only been open 22 hours Locutus. I'll see if I can get in some campaigning tonight. I don't want to sell short the populace by outlining my campaign in 5 minutes using this awful PC in high resolution mode. Until then, I urge the citizens to restrain their vote until they have carefully weighed up the positions of both candidates.

[Martin Gühmann]

Well here is my question again: How would you get the map of the Austrians by only using peacfull means or also by the mean of threatening.

-Martin

[Locutus]

Martin,
I do not believe that threatening will be either needed or useful. The Austrians only slightly dislike us, giving 100 Gold will create a pretty large regard boost. Their trust of us should still be average. So after that an equal exchange of maps should still be accepted, especially if our Warrior leaves their land ASAP (if only temporarily). The only potential problem is that the generally AI only accepts map-exchange agreements every 30 or 40 turns and I'm not 100% sure that the counter only starts after successful trades and not after failed attempts. But I'm fairly certain that IW's screw-up doesn't have to be fatal.

If even after having given 100 Gold, the map-exchange still fails, I do not believe threatening will help much, but it won't do any harm either (a threat to the best of my knowledge has no significant effect on either regard or trust), so I'd certainly be willing to try it, if a majority of the community supports it (so I would start a poll over it).

I base this knowledge on my extensive diplomatic background: I win over 50% of my games through Diplomatic victories, so I am intimitely familiar with the rules and customs of CtP2's diplomacy. As some of you may remember, I wrote the book on diplomacy in MedMod2. So, although SAP's diplomacy works slightly differently than the MM2's, I have an extensive and proven background in this field and would IMO be more suitable for this function than IW, who has no proven record here. In fact, his only record is the screw-up he made with the map-exchange in this game

IW,
Yes, only 22 hours, but the first 24 hours are quite important: 1/3 of the community didn't want to wait for you and already voted. Because you remain absent, the people who voted for you have no idea what they are voting for! You announced policies may be the exact opposite of what they were expecting and they will have been let down. I care for my voters, so I want to make it as clear as possible to as many of them as possible what I stand for. That way they know what they are voting for. If you care for your voters, I urge you to do the same!

[ískallin]

Your speech seduced me Locutus

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by Locutus
Martin,
I do not believe that threatening will be either needed or useful.

Sorry Locutus I was leaning toward you for the position, because of your experience and dedication to the game, however this statement swayed my vote. In all of my experiences with diplomacy in CTP2, regardless of the mod, threatening has always been necessary. Without it, the AI agrees to very little. On the flip side, if it's used properly you can almost always get your way. As an example, the use of nicely timed threats allowed me to get some rather quick diplo wins in the SP tournaments.

[Locutus]

Sorry, centrifuge, I should have been more clear. I do think threatening is useful, very much so -- it's one of the most powerful tools available to the diplomat. However, I was saying that is this specific situation it won't be needed or useful. I know from experience that under the present circumstances in the game it won't do much good. Later on in the game it *will* though.

Plus, why did you vote for IW over that issue? He hasn't responded here at all yet and so far also refused to threaten. I already stated in my previous post that am open to the idea if that's what the people want; for all we know, IW may be completely opposed to it...

[Immortal Wombat]

Well, I'm sorry I haven't been here for this thread so far, I have been having trouble finding time to get any posting in between exams and so forth, and the poll blindsided me a little.

Anyhow, my position is thus:
As I see it, the course of action to take does not require much open debate here, at all. The time will come when decisions have to be made, and as far as possible, I will leave it to the population to decide. Is this not a "democracy" game?
Indeed.
I wonder how many of you good people have read the GL entry for Virtual Democracy? In there, you will find that the system of government works because ever decision is voted on by the populas, via a cyber-voting system. Well, surely that is what we have now! In this forum, every citizen has as much right to an opinion as any other, and I firmly believe in this sacred truth.
As far as is humanly possible, I will endeavor not to take any decision without the backing of the majority of the population.

Now, Locutus has done a brilliant job of outlining our optimum strategy, and I cannot hope to better him, suffice to say this:
1. We are in a weak position relative to Austria, gifts of gold will work, but if we are threatening, we have to be sure our bluff will not be called, or we will face the wrong end of their big pointy sticks. This is not to say threatening is not a bad idea - let the people decide.
2. Locutus repeatedly mentions my "screw-up" in the map exchange. We cannot know for sure either whether a gift or a threat would have worked any better, and we are not, after all restricted in how many times we can offer exchanges.

The honourable candidate Locutus may have experience with the CtP2 diplomacy system, but has relatively little experience in Democracy Games. Having been a citizen of the Civ2 democracy game, and a registered member of the Civ3 Demo game, I have been present for many polls, both scientific and diplomatic.

I have seen how processes have worked and faltered, and I believe I can present the clearest case to the citizens.

My unconstitutional diplomacy poll may have been unofficial, and thus prone to bias and misinterpretation, but I genuinly believe that it was in the interests of the population to present the poll thus.
Above all else, I value your input.

There is no doubt in my mind, that either Locutus or I would make equally good Ministers, but my major concern is that if Locutus is made Minister, he will ruin us all er... not be able to perform as efficiently in his other duties.
Be honest, how many times have you seen Locutus say "I'm busy in RL at the moment"? Quite a few I suspect.

Locutus, as he at pains to point out, has a life. Well I for one have no such worries. I am not Moderator of three forums, I have no Newsitems to post, I have no mods to be making (quiet Hex ), and I have time to dedicate to the success of Lemuria.

I have the science polls well under control and organised, and following Case 002, a better understanding of how diplomatic polls can be arranged for the good of all. Having been Minister once, I have the experience necessary to follow up with a second term in office.

Don't let the well being of the forum suffer through Locutus' excessive workload, vote for me, and I will lead us to further success yadda yadda.


Your humble servant,
The Immortal Wombat


Anyone who votes for me will get sweeties!

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by Locutus
why did you vote for IW over that issue? He hasn't responded here at all yet and so far also refused to threaten.

You're right, my vote was probably made with to much haste. I haven't been around Apolyton as much lately, so I haven't been able to keep up with all that has been going on. If IW refused to threaten, then he made a grave diplomatic mistake, which makes me reconsider my vote. The biggest error in casting a vote is to not do your homework beforehand

In the first meeting with the Austrians, a threat should have been made after they refused to exchange maps, this would likely have gotten the map for us. Their attitude toward us would then have increased simply due to the fact that we made a deal with them. However, this is most easilly done on the first meeting with them, now things may be different. If we wanted, it is very possible that we could have also had a peace treaty and military pact with them from our first meeting, had things been done right.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Well, I'm sorry I haven't been here for this thread so far, I have been having trouble finding time to get any posting in between exams and so forth, and the poll blindsided me a little.

And you're claiming *I* wouldn't have enough time to perform my duties?

As far as is humanly possible, I will endeavor not to take any decision without the backing of the majority of the population.

It goes without saying that I shall do the same, ordinarily no decisions shall be made without the backing of the people. And creating proper polls to investigate what the opinion of the people is, is something I have so far made less screw-ups in than you

However, as much as this is a Democracy, not under all circumstances can fully democratic decisions been made. The most notable situation is during turn-chats: a lot of decisions there have to be made very fast: a brief discussion between whoever is around (usually no more than a handful of Citizens) takes place but in the end the Minister is the one who has to make the call. For such decisions it's simply not possible to halt the game and spend three days to a week to find out what the people want. This situation should of course be avoided and anticipated as much as possible, but in some cases the Ministers will be forced to act on their own.

It is important for the Citizens to know how their Ministers will act in such situations, the Ministers must be able to represent their opinion without asking for it. Whoever votes for me knows what he can expect from me: if not offered the opportunity to poll, I will follow the policies set out in this thread. If people vote for you on the other hand, they have so far no clue of what they can expect.

1. We are in a weak position relative to Austria, gifts of gold will work, but if we are threatening, we have to be sure our bluff will not be called, or we will face the wrong end of their big pointy sticks. This is not to say threatening is not a bad idea - let the people decide.

Contrary to you, I do not fear the Austrian's sticks. However, as I said before, threatening will in this particular situation accomplish little, although I am still more than willing to do just that if it is what the people of Lemuria want.

2. Locutus repeatedly mentions my "screw-up" in the map exchange. We cannot know for sure either whether a gift or a threat would have worked any better, and we are not, after all restricted in how many times we can offer exchanges.

Well, this just proves that I know the diplomacy system better than you, because I *can* say for sure that the Austrians would have accepted the map-exchange if we had first offered them 100 Gold. If you want proof, feel free to find an old savegame and try it out. I'll eat my hat implants if they won't accept (do remember to leave 1 turn between giving the gold and asking for the map).

The honourable candidate Locutus may have experience with the CtP2 diplomacy system, but has relatively little experience in Democracy Games. Having been a citizen of the Civ2 democracy game, and a registered member of the Civ3 Demo game, I have been present for many polls, both scientific and diplomatic.

I may not have been an official Citizen but I *have* lurked various Democracy Games for a long time (Civ3, AC, CFC-Civ2, CFC-Civ3), so I've seen my share of polls as well. However, being a Citizen and being a Minister are two very different things. And I've helped set up this Democracy Game and am now active in setting up the CtP1-DG, which is IMHO more similar to a Minister's job than being a Citizen. So in this sense I feel I have actually more, not less, experience...

Be honest, how many times have you seen Locutus say "I'm busy in RL at the moment"? Quite a few I suspect.

That was before the Christmas Holidays, when I was indeed very busy. In the past 3 weeks though, I have had far more time and spent much of it on Apolyton. In fact, in this period I've made close to 20 posts a day, compared to a meagre 7 for you. I think mapfi, Pedrunn and H Tower can also testify that I'm usually been quick in performing any moderation tasks they required, even when I *was* busy. I will be equally prompt and loyal in my Minister functions.
Also, I'm signing up for this job now *because* I know that I will have time for it now. This will probably be much less so next month, so I will most likely not run for any office next month. Worrying about my schedule is something I can do very well myself, that's the last thing the Citizens of Lemuria will ever have to worry about...

[Immortal Wombat]

On the one hand, I'm tempted to waffle extensively and counter every point you make, and on the other I think to myself that clarity and brevity is more valuable. Is not clarity and unambiguity of paramount importance?

Whoever votes for me knows what he can expect from me: if not offered the opportunity to poll, I will follow the policies set out in this thread.

As will I. Those policies are the best course of action.

The real decision here is not what should be done, rather who should do it. I can promise both dedication and approachability, tolerance and flexibility, to see the constitution does not hinder our progress in an effort to keep the rules overly rigid.

Plus, my jokes are better.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by centrifuge
You're right, my vote was probably made with to much haste. I haven't been around Apolyton as much lately, so I haven't been able to keep up with all that has been going on. If IW refused to threaten, then he made a grave diplomatic mistake, which makes me reconsider my vote. The biggest error in casting a vote is to not do your homework beforehand

Ah, yes, you can leave it to IW to not give you a decent chance to do your homework

In the first meeting with the Austrians, a threat should have been made after they refused to exchange maps, this would likely have gotten the map for us. Their attitude toward us would then have increased simply due to the fact that we made a deal with them. However, this is most easilly done on the first meeting with them, now things may be different. If we wanted, it is very possible that we could have also had a peace treaty and military pact with them from our first meeting, had things been done right.

You are absolutely right. I must admit I forgot about this myself, but in the VERY first turn you meet, the AI is VERY receptive to threats. By threatening in the first turn, we could probably have closed any (reasonable) deal we could have thought of. But this only applies to the very first turn you meet them, so we no longer have this opportunity. Except for Martin, I don't think anyone else thought of this (and posted about it), so this was really a screw-up of (almost) the entire community

[Locutus]

dp

[Locutus]

On the one hand, I'm tempted to waffle extensively and counter every point you make, and on the other I think to myself that clarity and brevity is more valuable. Is not clarity and unambiguity of paramount importance?

Is that really what you believe or are you simply unable to counter my points? Most of my points were quite brief, it's just that I have a lot of them (contrary to some candidates)

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
As will I. Those policies are the best course of action.

Well, if you are gonna do whatever I would do anyway and are unable of coming up with better ideas, people might as well vote for me

The real decision here is not what should be done, rather who should do it. I can promise both dedication and approachability, tolerance and flexibility, to see the constitution does not hinder our progress in an effort to keep the rules overly rigid.

The very same goes for me and personally, I believe I have a better track record in this area than you

Plus, I can ban anyone who doesn't vote for me

[Immortal Wombat]

I believe I have a better track record in this area than you

No, you have a track record of fussing over every tiny detail which really doesn't matter.
Flexability is the key to organisation. Or something.

Keep talking,

Plus, I can ban anyone who doesn't vote for me

Trust this man with power folks, it's good for everyone

[Immortal Wombat]

[/lame ad hominems]