Article: The Executive Branch

[Pedrunn]

Lemmy, check the post again. I edited some parts.
I am really sorry it is late here in Brazil and i really need some sleep. Tomorrow i will comment what've you posted.

[Lemmy]

No problem, it was pretty late here too when i posted (3:30 AM), so i may have missed some parts of text

/me makes note to self, "never post after 1:00 AM"

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Looks nice. I dont actually see any difference. But J could come up with something

How about:

The Minister of Defense may not order any action which would result in a declaration of war without this action first being approved by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II).

[mapfi]

Ok Pedrunn, I think we're not really talking to each other. It might very well be that you actually agree with me! Anyway, this is how I would want it to be:

(f) In case of absence of one minister and all of its delegates during the game playing, the president will assume it functions and act in this absent citizen behalf. If two or more minister and all of its respectives delegates are missing the game playing will have to be delayed to a day defined by the President.

Scrap - it should be even more restrictive but not about absence during gameplay:
In case of the total absence of orders for a turn from a minister or his delegates the president may not play on

(b) The President may use turnchats, turnthreads, or any other method approved by the Court to play the game session.

This id good and it doesn't force the pres to actually play the turns while all the others are present since that can be rather difficult to arrange.

(c) The President must follow the instructions of the Court and Ministers while playing the game unless the instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances. In this case, the President can bring this decision into the vote of resolution poll if the minister doesn’t accept the President opinion therefore halting the game.

Reword to:
The President must follow the instructions of the Court, Ministers and passed resolution polls while playing the game. If an instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances, or in absence of specific instructions the President may decide in the best interest of the game.
This gives the pres the power to play the turns even if a minister forgot the order for one city, one unit or for a diplomatic proposal thta turns up, however he has no veto powers because his actions clearlc need justification and because of the first article above the pres has no right to just make all orders up if a minister doesn't give any.

[Pedrunn]

Lemmy and Mapfi,

I see where we are diverging. Correct if i am wrong.

My idea has the following order of events:

1) Discussions Time - The ministers and citizens start discussions about what to do next (dicussion threads, official and resolution poll,...)
2) Make Agenda - The minister and presidents make an agenda with what was decided in the dicussion time. (This agenda must be written in this article but it is not yet)
3) Set date to play the game - The Pres set a date to start a turn chat/thread to meet with all of it minister or the minister representations (delegates). If one position (the actual minister or a delegate) doesnt show up the Pres can take its function and continue the game. If two or more are absent a new date has to be schedule (So the president has to talk to all ministe to find the best day an hour).
4) Turn-Chat while playing the game - As the orders happens and the AI moves the Pres report what happened to the minister and delegates in the turn-chat/thread. And these minister make decisions on what to do next turn. Keeping the game moving.
5) End of the Turn-Chat - The Minister and the Pres end the turn-chat when think they played enough (should we limit the max number of turns playble in a turn chat?) or something very bad happened to make them decide that is better rport to the community first rather than keep playing or the president has decided on his own to end the turn-chat (as defined in section 2-I.c).
6) Report to the community - The current stage of game, the history (do we need a historian?) of what have happened during the turn-chat, and the save-games (for every turn?) is posted to all citzens as defined in section 1-h(I think we should write in this section that the Pres is encharge of this reports). The discussion time is re-started.

Mapfi idea is different from mine in the part 3, right?
In which the President doenst need to have all minister or minister represantation in the turn-chat. If a minister is missing he can play the game on his own making the decisions for these absent ministers.
Correct if i am wrong. So that we can discuss about it.

[Pedrunn]

J, Looks very nice much better. But i will make a small chage so that it can in accordance with section 3-II.d of the polling article.

"The Minister of Defense may not order any action which would result in a declaration of war without this action first being evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II)."

[mapfi]

Yes Pedrunn, I disagree with 3 and 4.

This is the way I see it and also the way in which the other DG's work:

1. Discussion
2. Orders The Pres opens a thread for the ministers' orders for a (by him) specified amount of turns with a deadline and with a time to meet for a turnchat (if he wants to, because if it's only orders for two turns this is not necessary). There's no chance all ministers, nor always one of his delegates will make it for that turnchat (look at us trying to set up times for MP games in the trophy!)
3. Gameplay The Pres executes all the orders he has got (unless of course one office hasn't given any orders yet because of laziness? He'll have to wait and we will impeach that lazy minister ) If something unexpected happens or some little order is missing the Pres decides if it's grave enough to stop already or if he should just decide that little thing on his own and play on. He can only play the number of turns specified in the order thread, of course
4. Report The Pres gives a full and detailed report to the community and of course the savegame

So, my suggestion above handle this all. The pres has to announce the number of turns he'd like to play and that's the limit. Because otherwise he'd end up with no orders for a turn and then he's required to stop immeadetly.

Your way will be way too restrictive and as I said before, this game will never progress this way, I'm sure. If however the majority decides it want's it to be that way, well, I'll accept that of course

[Pedrunn]

Mapfi, I am in favour of...

2) Discussion

There's no chance all ministers, nor always one of his delegates will make it for that turnchat (look at us trying to set up times for MP games in the trophy!)

I see... I will start thinking in the worst case and take this statement as a rule according to what has been experienced in the MP tourny. Therefore I am in favour of removing the reponsiblity of the minister or his delegate of being in the turn-chat.

4) Report

The Pres gives a full and detailed report to the community and of course the savegame

I will make this clear in the next article update.


But i am against...

3. Gameplay

The Pres executes all the orders he has got
(...)
If something unexpected happens or some little order is missing the Pres decides if it's grave enough to stop already or if he should just decide that little thing on his own and play on.

You mean not having the turn-chat session for discussion of every order given to the Pres, the consequence this acts may cause and any new event caused by the AI if the subjective President thoughts dont think worth telling!?!
I am totatlly against for sure.
I am in favour of setting a date to play the game and the president will report what he is doing and what it has caused in a chat or thread. Anyone can start a dicussion about these new events or just check the game evolving. Although any decision in this chat will be made by the ministers or the delegates or the president (in that oder of presence).

[Lemmy]

You mean not having the turn-chat session for discussion of every order given to the Pres, the consequence this acts may cause and any new event caused by the AI if the subjective President thoughts dont think worth telling!?!
I am totatlly against for sure.

That's why we must elect a president we can trust

I am in favour of setting a date to play the game and the president will report what he is doing and what it has caused in a chat or thread. Anyone can start a dicussion about these new events or just check the game evolving. Although any decision in this chat will be made by the ministers or the delegates or the president (in that oder of presence).

Having a turnchat and evaluate every order may be possible in the beginning, but if we want the game to progress a bit later on, turnchats will take forever. In the 3rd month of the ACDG game, it already takes 1+ hour to play only five turns, and that is when all the ministers have posted their orders. Imagine if they have to decide on the spot.

[mapfi]

Just think of the occasions when these articles actually are needed - they're not really that decisive for the game:
1. Diplomatic proposals by the AI: Easily handled by guidelines set by the foreign minister on how to respond.
2. An enemy move makes a planned move of our unit impossible: The pres knows the overall plan, no need to halt the game
3. A wonder is being finished that we also build: Change the queue.
4. A stack of AI units turns up and/or moves towards one of our cities, other unit stack or just inside our borders: That'd be an occassion where it'd would probably be better to stop the game
5. A uncoventional unit has attacked us: Maybe start searching or also halt the game.
6. One of our units is in grave danger if an order was executed: Walk on another route.
7. A goody hut is seen nearby: Go for it or maybe the SMC sets guidelines for that too.
8. Cities riot: Specialist or slider adjustement

That's about all I can think of.

[Pedrunn]

UPDATE

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Article: The Executive Branch


1. General Contents

(a) The members of the Executive Branch are called ministers and the positions in the Exective Branch are called ministerial offices or executive offices.
(b) Any citizen become a candidate for an executive office by expressing his desire to in the thread started by the Court as described in Article IV.
(c) An elected minister is charged with the duties explained in this Chapter 2 of this article until the end of the term for which the minister was elected.
(e)The terms for all elected offices last four weeks (28 days). All ministers will remain in office for this period unless they resign or are impeached before the end of it.
(e) If a minister will be unable to perform its duties for some part of the term, this minister has the right to choose a willing citizen as delegate, who will act on his behalf, until further notice from the minister or the end of the position term, whichever is the sooner. This delegate will still be subordinated to the citizen being replaced.
(f) In case of absence of a minister and all of its respectives delegates during the game playing, the president will assume it functions and act in this absent minister behalf.
(g) A minister who expects to have to appoint a delegate for a significant proportion of the term is encouraged to resign.
(h) Every in-game action made or recommended to the President by a minister must be posted to the forum, no matter how insignificant it is.
(i) All resolutions passed by the citizens through a resolution poll declared valid by the Court will be obeyed by all ministers and will overrule all decisions made by ministers in order to make its content part of the game.


2. Government Positions

I. The President
(a) The President shall physically play the game on a regular and scheduled basis whenever possible and post the save and a complete report of the game events to the forum.
(b) The President may use turnchats, turnthreads, or any other method approved by the Court to play the game.
(c) The President must follow the instructions of the Court and Ministers while playing the game unless the instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances. In this case, the President can bring this decision into the vote of resolution poll if the minister doesn’t accept the President opinion therefore halting the game.
(d) The President is in charge of naming all new cities of the empire regardless of how the cities were created or assimilated. Still the President must have this name evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II) after grant the city with the chosen name.
(e) The President is in charge of all the Empire settings and sliders, including Rations, Workday, Wages, Public Works rate and Science rate.
(f) The President has the power over the money reserve. Therefore every money spending decision must have the aproval of the President in order to be act.

II. The Minister of Domestic Affairs
(a) The Minister of Domestic Affairs is responsible for managing all cities. Including their distribution of specialist citizens and production queues, rushed production requests and disbanding of cities.
(b) The Minister of Domestic Affairs can only disband a city after this action be evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II).
(c) The action of Rush buy build queue itens will only be perfomed with the aproved by the President.
(d) The Minister of Domestic Affairs is ultimately responsible for the settlers, choosing site for new cities and moving these units to this site.

III. The Minister of Infrastruture
(a) The Minister of Infrastructure is ultimately responsible for the placement of tile improvements, choosing the best tile and the best improvement to place with the current reserve of public workers.

IV. The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade
(a) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade is responsible for gifts, requests, exchanges and agreements with other nations. Still every proposal or response to a proposal that involves gold spending has to be aproved by the President.
(b) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade can only propose a gift or an exchange with another civilization three days after this minister start a Official Poll (article III Section 3-II) with this topic for public hearing.
(b) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade has the control over all unconventional units, except settlers. And this minister may spend gold with the unconventional units orders, but only after the approval of the President.
(c) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade controls all internal and foreign trade.
(d) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade controls research. But in choice can only be accopliched three days after being evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II).

V. The Minister of Defense
(a) The Minister of Defense controls all units and their orders including the disband order, except settlers and all other unconventional units.
(b)The Minister of Defense may not order any action which would result in a declaration of war without this action first being evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II).
(c) The Minister of Defense shall name all armies that he thinks necessary to make easier the discussions.

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[Pedrunn]

We still need to decide about the game playing if only possible along with a open turn-chat or the president can play by his own following the Ministers guidelines.

[mapfi]

Apart from all the stuff I've said before:
All the requirements for official polls are unnecessary limitations. The ministers are after all elected to do something!
In case of war I accept it because that's a grave decision. All the other polls you want to require however are not so important decisions after all. Of course the minister can still poll if he wants to, and citizens can put up a poll with the necessary requirements but this has to be optional. We'll end up voting on so many polls, turnout is going to be low and decision will then be purely random. Only if it's a really controversial issue a poll should be needed and then either a citizen or the minister if he wants to can put it up.

[Pedrunn]

I dont see that many obligatory official polls.

It is just these few ones that probably will be controversial.

Do you like this city name?
Should I disband this city?
What to research next?
Should I start a war with this civilization?

BTW, I believe we should start a poll on how to handle the game playing tomorrow. I still think the best way is to have a turn-chat while playing the game.

[mapfi]

well, actually you're right - i just don't like the research one!

And if a turnchat will be required by the constitution we'll certainly limit the progress of the game.

If ever were to be Pres I almost certainly would hold a turnchat maybe every two weeks but inbetween get a few turns done with an order thread for the next few turns (depending on the year we stand at). I certainly don't have time for hours of turnchats every week - not as Pres, nor as minister.