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**J Bytheway** · November 25, 2002, 16:15

Re: Article: The Executive Branch

As usual I suggest some grammar changes, but also some other things. My other comments are in square brackets [].

Article: The Executive Branch

1. General Contents

[First I think we need some definitions - they would go better in a glossary if we have one, but I thought I'd put them here for the time being]
(a) The members of the Executive Branch are called ministers.
[I'm not sure whether the term minister should include the President - for the moment I assume it does]
(b) The positions in the Exective Branch are called ministerial offices or executive offices.
(c) Any citizen become a candidate for an executive office by expressing his desire to in the thread started by the Court as described in Article IV. [I hope I got the right number. We're still not saying in any of these articles exactly when the polls and so forth are to be started.]
(d) An elected minister is charged with the duties explained in Chapter [Chapter? We need to conventionalise the names for sections and subsections. I think it should go Article, Section, Subsection, Paragraph] 2 of this article until the end of the term for which the minister was elected.
(e)The terms for all elected offices last four weeks (28 days). All ministers will remain in office for this period unless they resign or are impeached before the end of it.
(e) If a minister will be unable to perform his duties for some part of the term, this minister has the right to choose a willing citizen as delegate, who will act on his behalf, until further notice from the minister or the end of the position term, whichever is the sooner. This delegate will still be subordinated to the citizen being replaced.
[I think something like the following would be a good idea, but I'm not sure, since it's not really a rule]
(f) A minister who expects to have to appoint a delegate for a significant proportion of the term is encouraged to resign.
(g) Every in-game action made or recommended to the President by a minister must be posted to the forum, no matter how insignificant it is.
(h) All resolutions passed by the citizens through a resolution poll declared valid by the Court will be observed by all ministers. Resolution polls overrule all decisions made by ministers.
[I'm not sure if "observed" is quite the right word here, but I think so]

2. Government Positions

I. The President
(a) The President shall physically play the game on a regular and scheduled basis whenever possible and post the save and a report of the game to the forum.
(b) The President may use turnchats, turnthreads, or any other method approved by the Court to play the game session.
(c) The President must follow the instructions of the Court and Ministers while playing the game unless the instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances. In this case, the President can bring this decision into the vote of resolution poll if the minister doesn’t accept the President opinion therefore halting the game.
(d) The Domestic Minister [Eh? Isn't this the President?] is in charge of naming all new cities of the empire regardless of how the cities were created or assimilated.
(e) The President is in charge of all the Empire settings and sliders, including Rations, Workday, Wages, Public Works rate and Science rate.

II. The Minister of Domestic Affairs
(a) The Minister of Domestic Affairs is responsible for managing all cities. Including their distribution of specialist citizens and their production queues and rushed production requests.
(b) The Minister of Domestic Affairs is ultimately responsible for the settlers, choosing site for new cities and moving these units to this site. The Minister of Domestic Affairs is also responsible for the disbanding of cities.

III. The Minister of Infrastruture
(a) The Minister of Infrastructure is ultimately responsible for the placement of tile improvements, choosing the best tile and the best improvement to place with the current reserve of public workers.

IV. The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade
(a) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade is responsible for gifts, requests, exchanges and agreements with other nations.
(b) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade has the control over all unconventional [actually I'm not sure about this, but I don't like special either. Special forces means something else. Another thing for the glossary, perhaps?] units, except settlers. And this minister may spend gold with the unconventional units orders, but only after the approval of either the President or... [did you mean to put "either" there?].
(c) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade controls all internal and foreign trade.
(d) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade controls research.

V. The Minister of Defense
(a) The Minister of Defense controls all units and their orders including the disband order, except settlers and all other unconventional units.
(b) The Minister of Defense can only start an act of war with another nation only after the approval of the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
(c) The Minister of Defense shall name all armies that he thinks necessary to make easier the discussions.

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Edit, edit and edit again. That's 6 times, I think...

**Pedrunn** · November 25, 2002, 18:50

Re: Re: Article: The Executive Branch

UPDATE: All J fixes added

Article: The Executive Branch

1. General Contents

(a) The members of the Executive Branch are called ministers and the positions in the Exective Branch are called ministerial offices or executive offices.
(b) Any citizen become a candidate for an executive office by expressing his desire to in the thread started by the Court as described in Article IV.
(c) An elected minister is charged with the duties explained in this Chapter 2 of this article until the end of the term for which the minister was elected.
(e)The terms for all elected offices last four weeks (28 days). All ministers will remain in office for this period unless they resign or are impeached before the end of it.
(e) If a minister will be unable to perform his duties for some part of the term, this minister has the right to choose a willing citizen as delegate, who will act on his behalf, until further notice from the minister or the end of the position term, whichever is the sooner. This delegate will still be subordinated to the citizen being replaced.
(f) A minister who expects to have to appoint a delegate for a significant proportion of the term is encouraged to resign.[/b]
(g) Every in-game action made or recommended to the President by a minister must be posted to the forum, no matter how insignificant it is.
(h) All resolutions passed by the citizens through a resolution poll declared valid by the Court will be obeyed by all ministers and will overrule all decisions made by ministers in order to make its content part of the game.

2. Government Positions

I. The President
(a) The President shall physically play the game on a regular and scheduled basis whenever possible and post the save and a report of the game to the forum.
(b) The President may use turnchats, turnthreads, or any other method approved by the Court to play the game session.
(c) The President must follow the instructions of the Court and Ministers while playing the game unless the instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances. In this case, the President can bring this decision into the vote of resolution poll if the minister doesn’t accept the President opinion therefore halting the game.
(d) The President is in charge of naming all new cities of the empire regardless of how the cities were created or assimilated.
(e) The President is in charge of all the Empire settings and sliders, including Rations, Workday, Wages, Public Works rate and Science rate.

II. The Minister of Domestic Affairs
(a) The Minister of Domestic Affairs is responsible for managing all cities. Including their distribution of specialist citizens and their production queues and rushed production requests.
(b) The Minister of Domestic Affairs is ultimately responsible for the settlers, choosing site for new cities and moving these units to this site. The Minister of Domestic Affairs is also responsible for the disbanding of cities.

III. The Minister of Infrastruture
(a) The Minister of Infrastructure is ultimately responsible for the placement of tile improvements, choosing the best tile and the best improvement to place with the current reserve of public workers.

IV. The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade
(a) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade is responsible for gifts, requests, exchanges and agreements with other nations.
(b) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade has the control over all unconventional units, except settlers. And this minister may spend gold with the unconventional units orders, but only after the approval of the President.
(c) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade controls all internal and foreign trade.
(d) The Minister of Diplomacy and Trade controls research.

V. The Minister of Defense
(a) The Minister of Defense controls all units and their orders including the disband order, except settlers and all other unconventional units.
(b) The Minister of Defense can only start an act of war with another nation only after the approval of the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
(c) The Minister of Defense shall name all armies that he thinks necessary to make easier the discussions.

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**Gilgamensch** · November 26, 2002, 03:29

some points from my site:

V b:

(b) The Minister of Defense can only start an act of war with another nation only after the approval of the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

We could run into a deadlock here, so why not involving another Minister or the President? (So an internal voting, like for the court?)

IVb and Vb are clashing.......... In one it is the President in the other the MoFA............

IV a: Seeing a problem there..... Imagine He want's to bribe a nation and the MoDA want's to spend the money on rushbuying???

Add-on for 2.II

(c) The Minister of Domestic Affairs can request a military escort to protect the settler (or something like this.....)

1h:

(h) All resolutions passed by the citizens through a resolution poll declared valid by the Court will have to be obeyed by all ministers and will overrule all decisions made by ministers in order to make its content part of the game.

might be a better choice?

I'll check again, but that are my first comments.

**Pedrunn** · November 26, 2002, 09:52

Originally posted by Gilgamensch 1h:
(h) All resolutions passed by the citizens through a resolution poll declared valid by the Court will have to be obeyed by all ministers and will overrule all decisions made by ministers in order to make its content part of the game.

So far this will be added for sure in the next update. Looks much better.

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
V b:
(b) The Minister of Defense can only start an act of war with another nation only after the approval of the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
We could run into a deadlock here, so why not involving another Minister or the President? (So an internal voting, like for the court?)

We could say that the minister of defense can only start a act of war three days after starting a official poll about this sucject in order to hear the public 's opnion. I think thats the best way to do it.

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
IVb and Vb are clashing.......... In one it is the President in the other the MoFA............

IV a: Seeing a problem there..... Imagine He want's to bribe a nation and the MoDA want's to spend the money on rushbuying???

I wonder if it wasnt better if all the gold spending or diplomatic gift has to be agreed by the president. Since he is the one who hears all minister´s actions therefore he has the biggest picture of the game. Dont you think?
V.b should be solved as i said in the above comment.

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
(c) The Minister of Domestic Affairs can request a military escort to protect the settler (or something like this.....)

A minister can talk to each other therefore he may ask anything to another minister. I dont belive this part is needed.
In this case the minister of defense will express his think about even if a negative decision was made. After all he may have a good reason not to scort a settler.

**Gilgamensch** · November 26, 2002, 10:17

For the act of war:

Yes, put it in as a poll. As this can be major change in the game, it should be us deciding..... Good thought.

For the money-spending:

still not sure. The reason why I am saying, depending on how the polls are build up, we still might not have a valid decision upon. Let's say, both poll: I want to spend XXXX Gold for YYYY. We say, Yes do it, for both, but there is only money for one

Shall we then have a run-off poll? Shall we compare the number of Yes-votes in each poll........ I hope you understand what I mean. Your choice of President, might be good for this case.

The only reason, why I wanted to have this sentence in, was that he can officialy request an escort and the Supreme Commander has to come up with a good reason, otherwise

impeachment

**Gilgamensch** · November 27, 2002, 11:43

Pedrunn, no comment? Went on holiday? Anyone else want to participate?

**Gilgamensch** · November 27, 2002, 12:12

little change for

1.) General Contents

(e) If a minister will be unable to perform his duties in the best interrest for the Democracy-Game for some part of the term, this minister has the right to choose a willing citizen as delegate, who will act on his behalf, until further notice from the minister or the end of the position term, whichever is the sooner. This delegate will be a subordinate to the Minister.

I think it sounds better and matches better???????

EDIT: spelling

**mapfi** · November 27, 2002, 13:05

I.(c) The President must follow the instructions of the Court and Ministers while playing the game unless the instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances. In this case, the President can bring this decision into the vote of resolution poll if the minister doesn’t accept the President opinion therefore halting the game.

In this case, meaning neither the minister who gave the order nor his delegate are there to decide this would mean a halt. Imagine we meet for a turn chat to play 5 turns - at turn 2 a situation like that arises. We stop the chat? NO! Looking at other DGs this actually happens quite often!
I'd like to word this the following way:
The President must follow the instructions of the Court, Ministers and passed resolution polls while playing the game. If an instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances, the President may decide on his own.

**Gilgamensch** · November 27, 2002, 13:21

It is not about to stop the turn chat, it is about halting the game.

You suggestion would give the president the absolute power. He could run whatever he wanted. Pedrunns suggestion is for this better: (at least in my mind)
If the two agree, it will continue, otherwise a resolution poll.

If it is something trival, I think they'll agree easily (i.e. move East, ocean-tile discovered, so move SE and afterwards NE for E again.....) and therefore not halt the game. If they can't agree, it should be back to us......

**mapfi** · November 27, 2002, 13:46

It is about stopping the chat. If the minister or his delegate are present at the turnchat then there's no problem. The minister will change his orders and everything is fine.
If the order is the court's, a resolution poll decision or a minister's who is not around then the game would have to be halted.

Either the order is clearly a minister's error. If he's not there or in short reach when the game's played - then the president shall decide.
Or the order is made impossible - the president decides what to do with a unit e.g. if it can't move to a certain point and the SMC is not present. No big deal.
Or the order has become harmful by changed circumstances - so don't execute it - and if the officer is not present, do what you think is right.

Those three cases don't give the president absolute power - in no way.

**Gilgamensch** · November 27, 2002, 13:56

SMC?

But that is also the idea of the delegate, he will fit in for the Minister........(on his behalve)

**mapfi** · November 27, 2002, 14:27

supreme military commander...

yes, delegates are there for this, but nevertheless those situations arise. the C3DG foreign minister had 3 delegates, nevertheless there were turnchats where noone of them was present.
What isn't regulated in the articles above is the absence of direct orders. How about this:
The President must follow the instructions of the Court, Ministers and passed resolution polls while playing the game. If an instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances, or in absence of instructions the President may decide in the best interest of the game.

The regular situation of course should be that the minister or his delegates are there to decide.

**Pedrunn** · November 27, 2002, 15:12

Originally posted by Gilgamensch Pedrunn, no comment? Went on holiday? Anyone else want to participate?

My time is scarce. I usually post once here another there. No defined time. Since my uni schedule is crazy and the amount of extra-class is enormous for the small amout of free time i have.
But you agreed with most of my stuff so i did not think i had much to comment. Still:

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
For the act of war:

Yes, put it in as a poll. As this can be major change in the game, it should be us deciding..... Good thought.

Actually, official poll is just for public hearing. In this case to make the people aware of his act. Therefore the minister will still have the power over the decision. But i doubt he will do what the people chose not to. Otherwise: Impeachment.

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
For the money-spending:

still not sure. The reason why I am saying, depending on how the polls are build up, we still might not have a valid decision upon. Let's say, both poll: I want to spend XXXX Gold for YYYY. We say, Yes do it, for both, but there is only money for one

Shall we then have a run-off poll? Shall we compare the number of Yes-votes in each poll........ I hope you understand what I mean. Your choice of President, might be good for this case.

If it was a decision from the minister it will be decided by the Pres as stated in the current article. But in case the decisons comes from the citizens through resolutions polls I think the president will have to delay one and choose the one he thinks the best. We could add a section in the chapter of General Contents explaning what the Minister can do in cases of impossible request for Resolution Polls.

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
The only reason, why I wanted to have this sentence in, was that he can officialy request an escort and the Supreme Commander has to come up with a good reason, otherwise

impeachment

He will have to asnwer the minister or his acts will do this. If he doenst have a good explanation the Minister of Domestic Affairs can always blaim the Minister of Defense for that lost settler.

Originally posted by mapfi
In this case, meaning neither the minister who gave the order nor his delegate are there to decide this would mean a halt.

Anyone can be the Minister Delegate. And this can be changed any time even during the course of the turnchat (If a minister has to leave). In case of an emergency that makes the Minister not show up in the game turnchat without previous warning and defined Delegate, we can come up with a solution. What about the Pres takes his functions like part of what mapfi mentioned (taking of the part which gives the Pres absolute power):
"The President must follow the instructions of the Court, Ministers and passed resolution polls while playing the game. (...) in absence of instructions the President may decide in the best interest of the game."

Originally posted by mapfi
If an instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances, the President may decide on his own.

As Gilg said This gives the President absolute power (tyranny) and I think we had already discussed that Pres shouldnt have veto powers. You can start a poll called "Should the President have veto Powers". But dont expect me to start it. I only start polls in things i want to change. The same way other people can start polls on their owns too. But if you do i will vote "no".

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
It is not about to stop the turn chat, it is about halting the game.

Resolution polls will last 3 days probably. Therefore this means halt the game. But this is the only solution i think possible. But as you said the two can always come to a agreement (what i think will happen more often). Or the minister can accept the president decision. Or the President can change his mind after a good explanation. The Resolution poll is just in case of a deadlock, a way to the President to appeal. Probably wont happen to often.

Originally posted by mapfi
Either the order is clearly a minister's error. If he's not there or in short reach when the game's played - then the president shall decide.

Originally posted by mapfi
Or the order has become harmful by changed circumstances - so don't execute it

This is very relative and subjective. Specially if the President opinion is not accepted by the Minister. We cant leave subjective spaces in a constitution.

Originally posted by mapfi
Or the order is made impossible - the president decides what to do with a unit e.g. if it can't move to a certain point and the SMC is not present. No big deal.

I think the minister can understand that and change his decision. Cant he?
And how can he not be in its place right after a decision was mad. A bad connection???

Still if this unpleasent and unlike event happen we have the delegates. If still no delegate we can give the decision to the President as i explained above in cases of a minister and delegates absence

I think i commented all

**mapfi** · November 27, 2002, 16:24

funny Maq seems to post my sentences...

This is not about veto powers it's about organization. The pres has the power to decide if a previous order looses sense and there's noone around to change it or there's no order at all.
There's no way ministers or delegates will always be present, there's no way they will be able to take all possible new events into account.
Look into the other Demogames, attend one of their turn chats and you know what I mean. Otherwise this game will never progress more than a few turns a month!
And yes I'll poll about this issue, but I'd like to hear other ideas and opinions first and discuss it thorough before putting up a poll out of nowhere

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