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**Locutus** · November 1, 2002, 02:34

Looks good Pedrunn. I don't have time to read it all, let alone respond, but I'll do so later today or tomorrow.

**mapfi** · November 1, 2002, 07:32

It's different...
I am kind of uncomfortable with the court appointing people as new minister without a No/Yes Poll. You did include it in the first part, so why not in the second. Apart from that - I actually like it being a different approach than the other DGs have!

**Locutus** · November 1, 2002, 08:56

As usual, I've rewritten the Article (well, the Election part, will get to the Impeachment part later) to include my own suggestions for improvement. Changes are in bold. Most are just grammatical or other minor changes, I may not even have highlighted them all. The most notable changes/additions/comments:
- what to do when there's only one candidate for an office: yes/no poll
- when there are no suitable candidates for an office, ANY Citizen may be appointed for this position (implies 2 things: (1) must be a Citizen; (2) usual restrictions (# of terms, etc) don't apply)
- while elections take place, old members of government stay in power; if none available, game is halted (anyone know a better solution?)
- is 3 days long enough for elections? maybe 5 is better?
- as staff member I have to interfere in the tie rules: the number of posts may never be an argument for anything, this encourages spam. I went for registration date, but I'm open to suggestions

1. Elections:

(a) The Court is empowered to oversee all elections and is empowered to resolve any election disputes according to the rules in this Constitution.
(b) The elections are started if the term of a determined government position has ended or the person who is in a certain government position can no longer practice his function.
(c) In case the reason for an election is the end of a term, the Election process must start nine days before the end of the given government position term. Until the end of the term or as long after that as it takes to elect a new candidate, the previous official will remain in office.
(d) If the reason is the impossibility of the person in the government position to practice his functions. The election process has to start immediately after the decision of ungovernability of the person in the government position. Until a new candidate has been elected, the game will be halted.
(e) At the start of the election process, all candidates for an office must publicly express their candidacy. For this they have two days. No candidate may be a candidate for more than one elected office.
(f) Once the candidates have expressed their candidacy, the Court will create an Election poll (see Article 3, section 4.I) for each elected office, with the names of the candidates as options. The poll shall expire in three days.
(g) If a person has been elected into the same government office for three consecutive terms, that person may not run for that specific office for a fourth time. After this fourth term, he or she may run for that office again.
(h) If only one candidate is available for an office, a Yes/No poll shall be held to decide if this person may serve in this office. This poll shall expire in three days.
(i) If a candidate receives more than 50% of the votes and the election thread expires, this person will be declared the new holder of the office for which he or she was a candidate.
(j) If no candidate for office receives more than 50% of the vote, there shall be a run-off election between the two candidates who received the most votes.
(k) The Court shall immediately at the end of the first turn of the election create a run-off poll between the two candidates who received the most votes. This thread will confirm the winner for the government position in question and shall expire in three days.
(l) In case of a tie the Court should count the number of times each candidate was part of the government. The candidate with lesser number of times in the government is chosen. If the tie persists the candidate who has been registered on Apolyton for the longest period of time will be chosen. If the tie still persists, the Court will decide which candidate is chosen.
(m) If there is no candidate for an executive branch position if not president, the President, upon being elected must appoint any Citizen to serve as the unelected minister. The appointed minister must be confirmed by a majority of the citizens in a Yes/No poll that shall last three days.
(n) In the event that there is no candidate for President, the Court must immediately appoint any of the Citizens as President. The appointed minister must be confirmed by a majority of the citizens in a Yes/No poll that shall last three days.
(o) In the event that there is no candidate for a judiciary branch position, the Court must immediately elect any of the Citizens for this office. The appointed minister must be confirmed by a majority of the citizens in a Yes/No poll that shall last three days.

**mapfi** · November 1, 2002, 10:54

Why would in a tie the one being newer to governmental jobs be chosen? It should be the other way, even if you want to give newbies a chance - for a DG office we need the experienced ones. In any case an exact tie is rather unlickely. Because of that and also because of it not making any sense scrap the part about being member for longer or having more posts. Have the court decide. This will likely never take place anyway and if, I rather have a court decision than a rule, ok you've been here longer... bah!

Furthermore I'm also for 5 days for the lection, 3 seems to be very short and since the old government will stay in place the game can continue.
Again something about abstaining. Where and when to put it? I'd say always, but never counting to the percentage neededthat is stated in the constitution, only if the con specifically requires a percentage of the citizens to vote should it count - but that might be a bad idea too, since after a while we'll end up with people who registered but rarely or never turn up.

**mapfi** · November 1, 2002, 11:00

by a majority of the citizens

see reasons above why this should be 50% of the vote instead - it'd just wont work - in the beginning yes, but this game will last quite a while probably.
Furthermore, I'd say we scrap the part about cases where no candidat turns up - because the court appointing someone and then have a yes/no poll is exactly the same thing as the one citizen running for office - only that he might be appointed against his will - not my choice!
Which brings me to a new line that I'd like in the impeachment part. The court may not appoint a citizen for an office against his will. That won't make sense in a game.

**Pedrunn** · November 1, 2002, 11:53

Locutus, i see you mostly mad the stuff clear and some changes i totally agree with you, except:

Until a new candidate has been elected, the game will be halted.

An ellection takes almost 1/3 of an government postion term. It is just too much time. So the game should not stop at all!!

If the tie persists the candidate who has been registered on Apolyton for the longest period of time will be chosen.

This was going to be the third un-tie reason if the differece of posts between the candidate was too smaller than 10. But i was afraid i was going to deep into it. Still how is that condition better than the number of posts. Since the more the number of posts do actually means more apolyton experience what is something to look for in a candidate.

Mapfi,

Why would in a tie the one being newer to governmental jobs be chosen? It should be the other way, even if you want to give newbies a chance - for a DG office we need the experienced ones.

I am not doing this for the newbie but for the empire and to have more new fresh meat in the government. Wich means a more dynamic democracy.
After all we should do everything not to have an oligarchy.

Because of that and also because of it not making any sense scrap the part about being member for longer or having more posts. Have the court decide

And how the court should decide then. For the avatars looks. It has to have a reason. Or the court will just say candidate A is the best, and candidate B is the worst among the two. This could we could create ressents wich personally i dont like. We should avoid the Court to have too personal decisions

Furthermore I'm also for 5 days for the lection, 3 seems to be very short and since the old government will stay in place the game can continue.

I agree with you but this means 11 days of election. Isnt this just too much

Again something about abstaining. Where and when to put it? I'd say always, but never counting to the percentage neededthat is stated in the constitution,

thats trick since some may say that abstaining is the same as not vote. Not too mention it will just be extra math. I would agree with you but but under the circustances i believe abstaining should count in the percentage. Still it id trick snd i feel a bit divided.

by a majority of the citizens

I agree with you this is wrong.
AMENDMENT: It should be written more than 50% of the voters.
Dont be hard on me, ok. It was almost 2:00 AM when i finished this article

[quote]
Furthermore, I'd say we scrap the part about cases where no candidat turns up - because the court appointing someone and then have a yes/no poll is exactly the same thing as the one citizen running for office [quote] We could fuse section 1.n and 1.o and i am for this. Still those are different stuff and should be in tdifferent threads

only that he might be appointed against his will - not my choice!

Anyone should be in a position against his will.
We should add an "if accepted" line not to have flaws in the constitution.

I am kind of uncomfortable with the court appointing people as new minister without a No/Yes Poll. You did include it in the first part, so why not in the second.

The temporary officer is in power only while a new ellection dont finishs so having an election for him (almost) means wasted time. Thats my opinion though.

It's different...

It trully is pretty much my stuff but i have got to addmit that it has influence form the Civ3DG, a small bit from the ACDG and some RunsWithDwarf comments in another thread.

**J Bytheway** · November 1, 2002, 13:20

Originally posted by Pedrunn
AMENDMENT: It should be written more than 50% of the voters.

Do you mean more than half the voters, or more than half the yes/no voters? If the former, then saying abstain is exactly the same as saying no, which doesn't seem right. Further, you'd better make it very clear whether you mean strictly more than half, or at least half (I'm assuming the former).

And I'd make some (mostly grammatical) changes to Locutus's version, which I think clarify things, and make them more consistent (but feel free to disagree

):

1. Elections:

(a) The Court is empowered to oversee all elections and is empowered to resolve any election disputes according to the rules in this Constitution.
(b) An election for a given government position is started if the term of the position has ended or the person in the position can no longer perfom his duties.
(c) If the reason for an election is the end of a term, the election process must start nine days before the end of the given government position term. The previous official will remain in office until the end of the term or until a new candidate is elected, whichever is the later.
(d) If the reason is the decision that the person in the government position can no longer perfom his duties. The election process must start immediately after this decision is made. Until a new candidate has been elected, the game will be halted.
(e) At the start of the election process, all citizens who wish to be candidates for an office must publicly express their candidacy. For this they have two days. No citizen may be a candidate for an elected office if such candidacy might cause him to be in more than one elected office simultaneously.
(f) Once the time in which citizens may express their candidacy for a given elected office has expired, the Court will create an Election poll (see Article 3, section 4.I) for the office, with the names of the candidates as options. The poll shall expire in three days.
(g) If a person has been elected into the same government office for three consecutive terms, that person may not run for that specific office for a fourth time. After this fourth term, he or she may run for that office again.
(h) If only one candidate is available for an office, a Yes/No poll shall be held to decide if this person may serve in this office. This poll shall expire in three days.
(i) If a candidate receives more than 50% of the votes and the election thread expires, this person will be declared the new holder of the office for which he was a candidate.
(j) If no candidate for office receives more than 50% of the vote, there shall be a run-off election between the two candidates who received the most votes.
(k) The Court shall, immediately the first election poll expires, create a run-off poll between the two candidates who received the most votes. The winner of this poll will be declared the new holder of the office for which he was a candidate.
(l) In case of a tie in polls at either the first or second stage the Court should count the number of times each candidate was previously part of the government. The candidate with fewer prior terms in the government is chosen. If the tie persists the candidate who has been registered on Apolyton for the longest period of time will be chosen. If the tie still persists, the Court will decide which candidate is chosen.
(m) If there is no candidate for an executive branch position other than that of president, the President, upon being elected, must appoint any (willing?) Citizen to serve as the unelected minister. The appointed citizen must be confirmed by a majority of the voters in a Yes/No poll that shall last three days.
(n) In the event that there is no candidate for President, the Court must immediately appoint any (willing?) Citizen as President. The appointed citizen must be confirmed by a majority of the voters in a Yes/No poll that shall last three days.
(o) In the event that there is no candidate for a judiciary branch position, the Court must immediately elect any (willing?) Citizens for this office. The appointed citizen must be confirmed by a majority of the voters in a Yes/No poll that shall last three days.

**RunsWithDwarf** · November 2, 2002, 04:27

Okay Pedrunn, But remember you asked for it!
Article 1, section (k); why not just do it all this way anyway the candidate still has to be approved by vote. I mean the article is nice and everything and after editing I think is worded rather eloquently in the latest draft "My Compliments!, to J Bytheway, marvelous job IMHO"

but, overall to me it all looks a bit redundant and minces words to make a few simple points. I mean I understand you don't want it to be missinterpreted

and for the Article to be perfectly clear to the reader

it just sounds Ah! I don't know, Too Political.

I just feel it could all be covered in that one section including impeachments or assassination if your looking at it from a broader perspective

I mean you still achieve the same result, if the President appoints his ministers or cabinet or what have you

they still must be approved first by the voters

so in any case they are still at the mercy of the voter

and in the case of more than one candidate

ther still must be a vote

. and if by chance ther is ever a posistion that no one seems to want although I don't see that happening, or ther is one citizen "willing" to fill that posistion

let him have it! what else can you do, make someone take it.

I could elaborate on this more for you if you would like, but I just think it could be somehow simpler than it is now.
I must agree with Locutus on the time frame to get the election results I would say 5 days minimal, at least to start, we could see where things go from there.
Also! I still think ther should be a chain of command, to have a elected official in office ready to step into the leaders shoes, if ther ever is an emergency, and should be included in this Artical as it stands, he could step in immeadiatly and take over the responsibilities and serve out the rest of the term if need be, we never know when someone may be sick, or have a real emergency to deal with, in this way we keep the game moving smoothly, but thats just me.
I also agree on limits on how many terms can be served, except for as I said above in the case of an emergency when someone has to step in, Who knows the official may do an excellent job, I feel if this is the case than this official should still be eligible to serve his full two terms if elected as president despite time served during the emergency. Yes! I understand this allows for a President or an Apolyton or whatever we call him to serve more than 2 terms, it could be argued that your own article makes provision for this from a legal standpoint, although I'm sure that was intended (We have to have something to put in the history books, Eh! "I can see the headlines now PRESIDENT SERVING THIRD TERM, IS IT LEGAL") Which by the way, I know this is off the subject, Locutus or someone I'm not quite sure who it was brought up the idea of an official historian I think it was, and somebody else mentioned news or media coverage for our future Democracy, I think both of these are outstanding ideas and it would be really nice to see them both implemented, I really think it would brighten add flavor and help add a lot of life to our otherwise so far small community and make it a wonderful place to come visit, at least from my perspective.
But Honestly, I don't know, let me chew on this a day or so and I'll get back to you!..

**H Tower** · November 3, 2002, 01:03

I believe that the pres should appoint someone to fill the position, you people are giving the court too much power here. power that has tradtionally been held by the execuitive branch in the real world.

with the possibility that no one wants to fill the space or the pres cannot find some one quickly, i think the VP should take over the duties of the minister who leaves. There is absolutely no reason to halt the game for four or five days to elect a new minister. Especially since the new minister would then most likely be required to get a copy of the game emailed to him, and then he would have to post a three day poll regarding his minitry. IT could very well take a week to get the game rolling again if a minister dissapears. Add on to that the few days of indecision of whether or not the minister has truly left or is just unavailable. Your talking about major pauses in the flow of the game, and if that happens, people lose interest and leave, and that's BAD

**Zaphod Beeblebrox** · November 3, 2002, 03:39

Re: Article: Government Changes

Originally posted by Pedrunn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any comments?

yes. lets get started!
finetuning of our constitution can happen during the game, through political campaigning, civil unrest, bloody military suppression and civil war. should be more historical correct and more fun this way (after all, its still a game, i have enough of civilized political debates in my real life)

**Zaphod Beeblebrox** · November 3, 2002, 03:40

Originally posted by Locutus
- while elections take place, old members of government stay in power; if none available, game is halted (anyone know a better solution?)

yes, ANARCHY!!!!

**Frozzy** · November 3, 2002, 03:54

We must finetune our constitution pre-game. The list of loopholes is endless.

Also, during election time, I believe the game should be halted.

**Pedrunn** · November 3, 2002, 04:10

So should we drop the second election with the two most voted citzes? And only have one poll to decide a gov position?
This will save time since the game will be halted and as RunsWithDwarf said it will spare the citzen patiente from endless voting. Not to mention that will make less complicated.

**Zaphod Beeblebrox** · November 4, 2002, 04:39

Originally posted by redbull
We must finetune our constitution pre-game. The list of loopholes is endless.

i know, thats what will make fun later

Originally posted by redbull
Also, during election time, I believe the game should be halted.

i can't remember any state of the world halting the global timeline whilst their inside political problems. well, on theother hand their secret services department for experimental physics might just not have told us

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