A simple question....

[Dale]

I have a simple question. It's probably been said heaps of times, so I'm sorry if it's a repeat.

Q) How many of the following will CTP2 handle in it's files?
- Units
- City types (like CityMod adds city types)
- Buildings
- Wonders
- Govs
- Tile imps
- Goods
- Advances
- Terrains

Any others I may have missed.

[Locutus]

Re: A simple question....

Originally posted by Dale
- Units

Infinite, although it only supports 200 unit sprites (above that, you'll need to recycle).

- City types (like CityMod adds city types)

AFAIK infinite, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a limit on the number of sprites here as well (but AFAIK we haven't found it yet).

- Buildings
- Wonders

64 each

- Govs

We haven't found a limit yet, there's no reason to assume there is one.

- Tile imps

Not quite infinite, but a lot (according to Ben).

- Goods

4 per terrain type. Again, a limit on the number of sprites might also exist.

- Advances

We haven't found a limit yet, there's no reason to assume there is one.

- Terrains

No clue, you'd have to ask IW or someone. That is, when it comes to graphics. When reusing graphics, it's probably infinite again.

Any others I may have missed.

Civilizations: 63 (should be 64, but that's buggy).
Feats of Wonder: as far as we know infinite, although at some point you'll run out of meaningfull ones.


Since you work in IT, I won't bother to explain what 'infinte' means in computerland

[Pedrunn]

Re: Re: A simple question....

Originally posted by Locutus
- Tile imps

I have about 90 TI in my tileimp.txt and all working

Originally posted by Locutus
- Terrains

I had almost 60 while testing BlueO City Expansion but some doest work like #32 (it always places rivers) #33 (places huts) and som number around 50 that places 3x3 square plains.

[Dale]

Cool!

Thanks Locutus & Pedrunn.

[Dale]

BTW Locutus:

Doesn't "infinite" mean something like 64,536 (or something very close to it?)

And as usual for computers, -32,000 to +32,000.

[Locutus]

Nah, we left those narrow 16-bit systems behind us a long time ago It's all 32 or even 64 bits now

(Oh, and it's 65,536 - no, I did not have to look that up )

[hexagonian]

Hey Dale,

I thought you had retired from CTP2 and the Modder community....

Once again, you will be re-assimilated. Next time, please save us the trouble by staying put

[Locutus]

I said it before and I'll say it again: you can come here whenever you want, but you can never leave (no matter how hard you try)!

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Dale
BTW Locutus:

Doesn't "infinite" mean something like 64,536 (or something very close to it?)

And as usual for computers, -32,000 to +32,000.

For tile improvement graphics that is the theoretical limit, that is also true for terrain graphics, even if the CTP2 format will only support 253 different terrain types, but such a tile file won't be compartible with the default game.

For the sprites 200 different city sprites and 200 different good sprites can the game use at the same, presuming you don't hack the ctp2.exe, probably this is also true for effect sprites, and maybe for projectile sprites if the game use them.

-Martin

[Dale]

Originally posted by hexagonian
Hey Dale,

I thought you had retired from CTP2 and the Modder community....

Once again, you will be re-assimilated. Next time, please save us the trouble by staying put

Dave:

Who said I was modding again?

Keep that mouth of yours SHUT Ben!

Loc:

I was close, only 1,000 off. Remember, I did 16-bit back in 95 or whenever it was. Long time ago in PC World!

[Immortal Wombat]

well if you're going to post all over the place questions that are clearly irrelevant to someone building a house, what conclusions do you want hex to draw?

I told him nothing.

[Dale]

*sigh* Okay Ben, that's fair enough. I really honestly didn't think I could hide for too much longer. I tried to space questions out over the last few weeks, but obviously Dave's smarter than the average bear.

First draft, code started being written last night.

////////////////////////////////////////
// //
// History of Mankind! - A CTP2 MOD //
// //
// By Dale Kent //
// //
// Concept incepted 20th August 2002 //
// //
////////////////////////////////////////

/////////////////////
Design Documentation:
/////////////////////

General:
--------

- This MOD is to be a complete rewrite of the general CTP2 settings.
- It will use as its base: Original CTP2 settings
- This MOD will represent history from 8000 BC to 2000 (10000 years).
- The time hops will be less:
Epoche 1 8000BC - 3000BC: 20 year turns (250 turns)
Epoche 2 3000BC - 0AD: 10 year turns (300 turns)
Epoche 3 0AD - 1500AD: 5 year turns (300 turns)
Epoche 4 1500AD - 2000AD: 1 year turns (500 turns)
This makes a total of 4 epoches, and 1350 turns of gameplay.
- Epoches will have specific goals for humans:
Epoche 1: Survival and establishment (Pre-History)
Epoche 2: Meeting the neighbors (Anchient)
Epoche 3: The quest for Empire (Medieval)
Epoche 4: Civilisation and Global ambition (Modern)

Individual MODs that will be used:
----------------------------------

- CityCapture
- DiploPhotos
- Ultra-gigantic maps (though not as big as what Apolyton Pack had)
- VisibleWonders
- NaturalWonders
- CityExpansion
- CityMod
- UnitUpdater
- GoodMod (for the goods)
- Some of the current AI cheat MODs (TileImpsForAI, FortsForAI, PWCheatForAI)
- Some new scripts that will be written for this MOD:
AgroBastard - Script to enhance the attack of the AI
GreedyBastard - Script to enhance the economics of the the AI
SmartBastard - Script to enhance the science of the AI
GrovelBastard - Script to enhance the diplomacy of the AI
PanicBastard - Script to enhance the defense of the AI
WetBastard - script to enhance the navy of the AI
SwoopingBastard - script to enhance the air useage of the AI
- Other new stuff that I'm going to add in:
More city sprites (on top of CityMod) like the Civ3 types
New units (EG. chariot)


Ages of Mankind:
----------------

Epoche 1:
- Stone
- Bronze

Epoche 2:
- Iron
- Philosophy

Epoche 3:
- Medieval
- Renaiscance

Epoche 4:
- Discovery
- Industrial
- Imperialism
- Modern

/////////////
New Concepts:
/////////////

Colonisation:
-------------

Colonisation by settler will no longer be available until Epoche 4. Before Epoche 4, colonisation will only be able to occur by a new method for CTP2. As you move your units around the map, you discover and uncover the map and its features. When a favourable location has been found, then settlement of that area will occur automatically. After that, the settlement will grow as normal for CTP2. During Epoche 4, the settler unit will be available to be built, but colonisation will also occur automatically under the above circumstances as well. Areas that influence favourable conditions:

- Military presence +pos
- Fortification +pos
- Enemy presence -neg
- River +pos
- Nearby beach +pos
- Good +pos
- Trade post +pos
- Another settlement -neg

Military Maintenance:
---------------------

No longer will there be the original military maintenance of CTP2. A new concept first pitched by myself in July 2002 will make an appearance. Military maintenance will still be based on how many units you have in the field, but on the following scale (to be finalised):

0 - 25: 1 PW per unit.
26 - 75: 2 PW per unit.
76 - 150: 3 PW per unit.
151 - 300: 4 PW per unit.
301 - XXX: 5 PW per unit.

This means if you have:
20 units: 20 = PW maintenance per turn.
40 units: 25 + 15*2 = 55 PW maintenance per turn.
80 units: 25 + 100 + 5*3 = 140 PW maintenance per turn.
150 units: 25 + 100 + 225 = 350 PW maintenance per turn.
200 units: 25 + 100 + 225 + 50*4 = 550 PW maintenance per turn.
500 units: 25 + 100 + 225 + 600 + 200*5 = 1950 PW maintenance per turn.

I anticipate this to cause problems for the human later in the game when the Civ is very spread out, and the cost of maintaining those armies (I like to call it beauracracy) will create weaknesses in the humans defense. Consequently, the AI should be able to take advantage of these weaknesses.

I am also throwing around the idea that any unit outside of the Civ's borders gets hit by double-maintenance (cost of shipping supplies to that area).

Military Units:
---------------

Military units will no longer be different units for each science jump. To the player, they will receive one unit of each type (scout/land/mobile/ranged/air/sea) and with progressive science advances, the stats of these units will improve. EG: Epoche 1, you will be able to build a Scout, Warrior, Mounted Warrior, Slinger. While discovering advances, instead of getting new units for each discovery, you're units will receive upgrades. If you research Copper Smelting, then your warrior's defense will increase (bronze armour). When you advance to the next Epoche's template, you will need to upgrade your units.

In underlying programming terms, a new unit will actually have to be used for this jump (CTP2 doesn't support changing unit template stats), but this will be an invisible upgrade which is free. The Epoche template upgrade will be performed by Peter's UnitUpgrade script.

Government Policies:
--------------------

In order to accomodate for the concept of colonisation, government policies will be introduced. Thes policies will affect how the script for colonisation runs. At this point I am thinking of implementing the following policies:
- Fast colonisation land (every second pop-growth point to colonisation in radius from capital)
- Normal colonisation land (every fourth pop-growth point to colonisation in radius from capital)
- Slow colonisation land (every sixth pop-growth point to colonisation in radius from capital)
- Fast colonisation sea (every second pop-growth point to colonisation near coast)
- Normal colonisation sea (every fourth pop-growth point to colonisation near coast)
- Slow colonisation sea (every sixth pop-growth point to colonisation near coast)

////////////////////
Tentative Tech Tree:
////////////////////

- 8000BC: Farming
- 8000BC: Mud bricks
- 8000BC: Thread
- 7000BC: Raw copper tools (50 turns)
- 6500BC: Pottery (25 turns)
- 5800BC: Cloth
- 4400BC: Loom (105 turns)
- 3800BC: Smelted copper (30 turns)
- 3000BC: Wooden wheels
- 3000BC: Paper
- 3000BC: Lever
- 2781BC: Egyptian calender
- 2500BC: Byblos boats
- 2000BC: Skull surgery
- 1750BC: Early astronomy (supports calender)
- 1750BC: Number system
- 1500BC: Iron working
- 1400BC: Water clock
- 1100BC: War galley (trireme)
- 1000BC: Abacus
- 850BC: Glazed pottery
- 800BC: Primative steel
- 650BC: Coinage
- 570BC: The story of creation
- 550BC: The humours identified

[Wittlich]

Looks very interesting Dale...this mod is, umm, very ambitious to say the least.

[Immortal Wombat]

Sounds immense.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Dale
*sigh* Okay Ben, that's fair enough. I really honestly didn't think I could hide for too much longer. I tried to space questions out over the last few weeks, but obviously Dave's smarter than the average bear.

Wellllllllllll, I was smart enough to figure out how to Mod CTP2, so I guess I can put 2 and 2 together... Ben said nothing either...

Anyhow, welcome back.

Looks good - a few questions

Originally posted by Dale
Colonisation:
-------------
Colonisation by settler will no longer be available until Epoche 4. Before Epoche 4, colonisation will only be able to occur by a new method for CTP2. As you move your units around the map, you discover and uncover the map and its features. When a favourable location has been found, then settlement of that area will occur automatically. After that, the settlement will grow as normal for CTP2. During Epoche 4, the settler unit will be available to be built, but colonisation will also occur automatically under the above circumstances as well. Areas that influence favourable conditions:

- Military presence +pos
- Fortification +pos
- Enemy presence -neg
- River +pos
- Nearby beach +pos
- Good +pos
- Trade post +pos
- Another settlement -neg

Sounds like this will help the AI to establish a good network of cities - provided that the settings are high enough to prompt to AI to aggresively explore. Is it first come, first shot at the lands then?

Originally posted by Dale
No longer will there be the original military maintenance of CTP2. A new concept first pitched by myself in July 2002 will make an appearance. Military maintenance will still be based on how many units you have in the field, but on the following scale (to be finalised):

0 - 25: 1 PW per unit.
26 - 75: 2 PW per unit.
76 - 150: 3 PW per unit.
151 - 300: 4 PW per unit.
301 - XXX: 5 PW per unit.

This means if you have:
20 units: 20 = PW maintenance per turn.
40 units: 25 + 15*2 = 55 PW maintenance per turn.
80 units: 25 + 100 + 5*3 = 140 PW maintenance per turn.
150 units: 25 + 100 + 225 = 350 PW maintenance per turn.
200 units: 25 + 100 + 225 + 50*4 = 550 PW maintenance per turn.
500 units: 25 + 100 + 225 + 600 + 200*5 = 1950 PW maintenance per turn.

I anticipate this to cause problems for the human later in the game when the Civ is very spread out, and the cost of maintaining those armies (I like to call it beauracracy) will create weaknesses in the humans defense. Consequently, the AI should be able to take advantage of these weaknesses.

I am also throwing around the idea that any unit outside of the Civ's borders gets hit by double-maintenance (cost of shipping supplies to that area).

I would guess that this would make upkeep easier in the later game. Currently, the CTP2 setup usually is 10% of unit cost, so once your units pass the 500 production cost level (per unit), you will start to break even on upkeep between the systems. (I know that a player generally has lower level units as part of his armies, so the maintenance costs would average out lower than 5 per unit, but that gap would close quickly due to upgrades and replacement of lost units due to warfare.

As you get to the higher costs (say averaging 1,200 production per unit to build) you would be only paying 5 production for upkeep per unit as opposed to 12 production per unit in the default game.

A lot will depend on how you work the production settings though.

Maintaining armies in enemy territories should be expensive as you are planning. This is great!!!

Originally posted by Dale
Military Units:
---------------
Military units will no longer be different units for each science jump. To the player, they will receive one unit of each type (scout/land/mobile/ranged/air/sea) and with progressive science advances, the stats of these units will improve. EG: Epoche 1, you will be able to build a Scout, Warrior, Mounted Warrior, Slinger. While discovering advances, instead of getting new units for each discovery, you're units will receive upgrades. If you research Copper Smelting, then your warrior's defense will increase (bronze armour). When you advance to the next Epoche's template, you will need to upgrade your units.

In underlying programming terms, a new unit will actually have to be used for this jump (CTP2 doesn't support changing unit template stats), but this will be an invisible upgrade which is free. The Epoche template upgrade will be performed by Peter's UnitUpgrade script.

Are you planning on using a color code system for the tgas? I can provide you with tgas for different levels of specific units, based on the current available CTP1/CTP2 units that are available.

The one problem is that you will not be able to tell the strength of the units you are fighting (Is that a low- or high-level warrior facing me?) But actually, that would make the game more interesting (a level of uncertainty is always good) and make the need to maintain an eye on where other civs are at in tech even more important.