Cradle 1.3

[hexagonian]

Yeah, I noticed that in my current game - considering that the pdf file had the movement for Triremes at (3) also...

I have bumped up the Trireme HP to 13 from 10. Seems I was losing Triremes left and right to Biremes in battle.

The next Update (1.31) should be coming out sometime later this week, with all of the suggested fixes that I have been getting from players.

Some new SLIC files will be included too.

[Bluevoss]

Looking forward to your new version - will old games (1.3) run on it? I'm in the middle of a Global war right now....

Heres a little bug - went from Corcles to Longboats. One Corcle was sailing towards a distant port when the conversion struck. All I know is that they crew must have gotten pissed off at the high falutin' manners of the two diplomats I had on board. Come morning, none were to be found.

The events were suspicous, though.

They probably ended up washing ashore on Gilligan's Island.

[Locutus]

Well, if you're upgrading anyway, a little minor nitpick here: in the Great Library I can't find any info on which units are government specifc. I know there are readmes and such but I think that if I open the GL entry of the Praetorians, I should be able to read somewhere that this unit is only available to the Dynasty(?) government. Having to Alt-Tab and go look for the info in the readme folder kind of ruins the atmosphere...

Also, is it me (quite possible - didn't research it thoroughly) or do the Praetorians and Legions have exactly the same stats (except for cost to build)? Why on earth would I ever build Praetorians if I can build Legions cheaper and not have to loose them after switching government?

Also, in my current game for the first time in ages I've reached Medieval times (usually I don't have enough time to play and quit after conquering my home continent) and I'm noticing I'm already building up a fair amount of pollution. I haven't seen any serious problems yet and I'm basing this on info from a single game but at this speed I fear I might start getting dead tiles and floodings before I reach the Industrial age, that's not very realistic, to say the least... Are others seeing this too (and have perhaps actually played longer and actually experienced pollution problems)? If so, this may have to be changed... (Note: I'm playing this game on King level - a tad too easy maybe for someone like me - this might affect the values as well).

[Hermann the Lombard]

<<(Note: I'm playing this game on King level - a tad too easy maybe for someone like me - this might affect the values as well).>>

That's about like Anatoly Karpov playing ChessMaster 2000 on a PC. :P

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Locutus
Well, if you're upgrading anyway, a little minor nitpick here: in the Great Library I can't find any info on which units are government specifc. I know there are readmes and such but I think that if I open the GL entry of the Praetorians, I should be able to read somewhere that this unit is only available to the Dynasty(?) government. Having to Alt-Tab and go look for the info in the readme folder kind of ruins the atmosphere...

...already been fixed for the Update!

Originally posted by Locutus
Also, is it me (quite possible - didn't research it thoroughly) or do the Praetorians and Legions have exactly the same stats (except for cost to build)? Why on earth would I ever build Praetorians if I can build Legions cheaper and not have to loose them after switching government?

Stats for the Legion
Attack - 30
Defend - 20
HP - 15
Cost - 525

Stats for the Praetorian
Attack - 30
Defend - 25
HP - 18
Victory Enslavement
Cost - 600

The main benefit IMO, is in the additional hitpoints and the ability to create more slaves, as the cost of Slavemasters is higher than Praetorians - the purpose for using a Dictatorship is primarily for military conquest and expansion during a particular timeframe of the game. And I guess I wanted Dictatorship to only be a short-term government (very poor science in comparison to other governments of the time).

Still, do you think I should drop the cost of Praetorians to the same cost as Legions?? Any other opinions on this?

As a sidenote, I haven't built any of the gov-specific units in my games either - I do not like to have to disband them when switching governments, so I spend the money for units that will carry over.

Originally posted by Locutus
Also, in my current game for the first time in ages I've reached Medieval times (usually I don't have enough time to play and quit after conquering my home continent) and I'm noticing I'm already building up a fair amount of pollution. I haven't seen any serious problems yet and I'm basing this on info from a single game but at this speed I fear I might start getting dead tiles and floodings before I reach the Industrial age, that's not very realistic, to say the least... Are others seeing this too (and have perhaps actually played longer and actually experienced pollution problems)? If so, this may have to be changed... (Note: I'm playing this game on King level - a tad too easy maybe for someone like me - this might affect the values as well).

I haven't had any reports from other players either on this issue. I'm in the same camp as you in that I have not played the game past Mid-Medieval. When setting up the Mod, I had used pollution more as a happiness modifier, but now that the Mod has been extended into the Modern/Post-Modern timeline, this may have to be reworked.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by hexagonian
...already been fixed for the Update!

Nice

Stats for the Legion
Attack - 30
Defend - 20
HP - 15
Cost - 525

I'm looking at a Legion in one of my games right now and it has a defense of 25 actually. I hadn't noticed the difference in HP though (GL doesn't mention HP), that's a biggy. Same for Victory Enslavement, I hadn't noticed that (although Legions can also do amphibious assaults, contrary to Praetorians, if the GL is accurate).

Still, do you think I should drop the cost of Praetorians to the same cost as Legions?? Any other opinions on this?

Knowing the differences, the price difference is probably justified, although, like you, I'm personally always very reluctant about building government specific units (esp. if that government in only a short-term one). You should make them Elite(/Unique) Units

I haven't had any reports from other players either on this issue. I'm in the same camp as you in that I have not played the game past Mid-Medieval. When setting up the Mod, I had used pollution more as a happiness modifier, but now that the Mod has been extended into the Modern/Post-Modern timeline, this may have to be reworked.

I thought so, that why I'm hoping for feedback from others on this as well... I'll keep reporting how things are going in my own game in any case...

[hexagonian]

I checked the file and the pdf chart had the wrong info - both Legion and Praetorians have same attack/defend.

I may adjust that though...probably leaning toward bumping up the Praetorian defense number.

[Lou Wigman]

Here is the latest 'AAR' playing Cradle 1.3 ; Impossible; 12 Civs; custom map (105x210) ; play abandoned 1000 AD.

At this setting getting a start can be tricky and I usually have a few attempts before I get rolling. Sometimes the AI next to me leaps away rapidly and this usually results in a quick and ignominious demise as well. Ever tried fighting a war with warriors and slingers v hypapsists and composite archers? Not nice!

At the end of this game I was strongest overall and pulling away from the pack rapidly. This was due to overwhelming economic strength. Middle of the road as far as science was concerned and fourth LAST in military.

Despite the seeming weakness in matters military defeating the AI never caused more than a few moments of mild panic. Defensive strategy was to leave nearly all cities with a minimum garrison but to have a number of 'mobile' armies near any threatened sectors. This leads to the (temporary) loss of frontier cities from time to time but is more efficient than having huge garrisons all over the place. The military dispositions of the vast AI armies clearly leaves a good deal to be desired, as did their tactics.

There is little doubt, however that this victory is entirely due to relentless expansion throughout the game. On completion I had 31 cities running Tribunal Empire. The largest AI had only 16, the majority far fewer. The really frustrating aspect here is that this particular civ had sufficient space for an additional 5 or 6 cities (in reasonable terrain) but simply failed to continue expanding!

Immortal Wombat, what is the status of your civmerge.slc?

[hexagonian]

Lou

The AI (lack of) expanson is something that has been an issue with me, and I do hope that the mergeciv coding is eventually created.

At the same time, I have also taken some steps currently available in1.31 that may help. I have bumped up the number of settlers/nomads that the AI will build in CRA_strategies.txt

SettlerUnitsCount 4 //from 2 april 2002
SeaTransportUnitsCount 3
AirTransportUnitsCount 3
SpecialUnitsCount 4

(Although not as drastic as the ones in Dale's WAW mod, this setting is having an impact on the number of cities being built by the AI in his setup. It may not be as drastic in Cradle because the cost of Settlers is higher too.)

I have also reduced the city radius for AI settling

// minimum distance between settled cities
// (eg. new cities must be founded at least 2 cells from nearest cities collection border)
MinSettleDistance 3 //from 4 april 2002

I also gave the ability for civs that are at war with you the ability to disregard your borders when building cities. I am hoping that the cumulative effect of all of these changes will free up some more land for the AI to build on, and at the same time allow the AI to build more settlers.

In my current 1.3 game (Very Hard, 8 civs, not using the new 1.31 settings 650AD), I'm at 32 cities in a Tribunal Empire. The highest ranked civ has 28 and the next one has 25. There is a dropoff after that though.

I am in the same situation as you were Lou (middle-of-the-pack military and science) and a good economy (mainly to make sure I get the gold I need for upgrade costs). I'm finally able to push the Romans (second place civ) out of my territory and am slowly pushing forward. (BTW, I am trying to do the 800 turn colonization victory)

The key still seems to be the same as all other TBS games - expand to get to the point that you can outproduce the other AIs and then wear them down by sheer numbers. I've felt that in any TBS game, the longer the game goes on, the advantages seem to eventually favor the human player.

Still, it makes for a good 600 turn game.

Finally, I have been in discussion with Dale about a replacement for Frenzy, which I am hoping that will help the AI with a more focused military.

[Peter Triggs]

In my current 1.3 game (Very Hard, 8 civs, not using the new 1.31 settings 650AD), I'm at 32 cities in a Tribunal Empire. The highest ranked civ has 28 and the next one has 25. There is a dropoff after that though.

Check what governments they're in. I think it's the 'TooManyCitiesThreshold' that puts a cap on when an AI civ will build cities. When I doubled these values, I got the AI pursuing an ICS strategy.

[Bluevoss]

I mentioned this on another thread, but I think that some slic needs to be put in to provide challenge in the later part of the game (where the human runs away). This shoud be an optional game (for us who are just playing to win, rather than hit a specific objective). In other words, they would only be active if you decided to make them run.

Say that, after 500BC, once you got bigger than the 2nd and 3rd races combined, something would trigger to make the game more difficult. The trigger would be random, and would work to check the player from getting the customary end-game lead. Some suggestions (it aught to be randomly picked from this list).

CIVIL WAR - One half of your cities (based on their distance from your capital) rebel and break away for form a new race.

POLITICAL FORMATION - The 2nd and 3rd races join (to become a super-2nd).

BARBARIAN ATTACK - A dozen 12 stacks of barbarians are placed on your boarders!
THE MAD KING - Your Government goes into Tyrany and stays there until you lose your commanding lead. With all the rioting and production drops, that shouldn't take long.

Again, this is not something I would want to inflict on someone trying for a victory condition. It should be set for players who just want to get a continuing challenge from an open-ended game.

Any thoughts (or ideas) on this?

[hexagonian]

As a sidenote, these all would make excellent playing options for the masochist player seeking the ultimate challenge. I couldn't see these events as standard features, except for #2.

Originally posted by Bluevoss
CIVIL WAR - One half of your cities (based on their distance from your capital) rebel and break away for form a new race.

Originally posted by Bluevoss
POLITICAL FORMATION - The 2nd and 3rd races join (to become a super-2nd).

This has been kicked around a lot, and I am holding out hope that this can eventually be done, and this will be part of the standard Cradle setup if it can be accomplished.

Originally posted by Bluevoss
BARBARIAN ATTACK - A dozen 12 stacks of barbarians are placed on your boarders!

As the game goes on and the map is explored, barbs do get less, so having them spring up late-game (as the most powerful unit available for the time) would make a nice monkeywrench.

Even more interesting would be to have the futuristic units start appearing in say, the 1600s and launch some thrusts into your territory. A great fantasy-style scenario, a la Harry Turtledove.

Originally posted by Bluevoss
THE MAD KING - Your Government goes into Tyranny and stays there until you lose your commanding lead. With all the rioting and production drops, that shouldn't take long.

This one would be nice too. More historically real than the above.

[Bluevoss]

There is still a problem (so it seems) with the middle-age pull away. You know the bit - you hammer away at the other races until the dark ages, and suddenly, you are pulling away an never looking back.

Any chance we could put in an automatic boost to the computers science? Once he gets behind, there isn't a lot of hope for him.

Also, I'm not sure if the later developments take a little long. I don't get that "Technology speeding up" feel - actually, it seems like its taking longer for each step. I've got about 30 cities and a couple of them are rocket-villes (i.e. lots of scientists). No luck - its about 750AD and we are still working on crossbows.

On the other hand, the computer took one city and tried for two more. Gotta love him for his efforts. I managed to get all the scrap units together and attack him and take the city back, but now we are both reeling from our war. Good thing.

Another minor point - Im in tribunal empire and wanted to go to monarchy. In the "Comparisons" (where you enect the new government) it shows monarchy as putzy - not as much food, military, etc, etc. Yet in the comparison sheet, it looks like Monarcy is better. Are the game files still goofed up?

Still, its been a good game - its been holding my attention all the way through, and I'm going to make a run at an end game.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Bluevoss
Any chance we could put in an automatic boost to the computers science? Once he gets behind, there isn't a lot of hope for him.

It may be time to move up to Impossible and move to 1.31

Modifiers do kick in for the lower level civs. (If you have adjusted the userprofile txt file to include the addition of splinter civs you will often see that these smaller civs do very well in that department, even long-term.) The effect is more drastic the further behind a civ is from the leader.

A big part of the problem is also tied into the size of your civ too. I'm guessing that your civ is larger at this point in time than any of the other civs. One of the reasons why I cannot quite get a leg up on the Romans and the Zulus in my game is that both of them have very good sized civs, and the Zulus are off continent from me and only recently discovered.

Plus I am now up against the city cap and suffering (-3) happiness. And I do not like razing perfectly good AI cities. (That self-imposed house rule actually makes for a great game, IMO - it doesn't help that I am a cheap bohemian in real life either).

It is my hope that the adjustments made in the 1.31 strategies.txt file will help AI civs become larger.

And as you are aware, Dale is in the process of making some SLIC files that will help the AI in military expansionism/city conquest.

Originally posted by Bluevoss
Also, I'm not sure if the later developments take a little long. I don't get that "Technology speeding up" feel - actually, it seems like its taking longer for each step. I've got about 30 cities and a couple of them are rocket-villes (i.e. lots of scientists). No luck - its about 750AD and we are still working on crossbows.

How many turns is it taking you to do an advance now? I'm running about 10 turns per advance. (Sidenote: The timeline is still holding up to the advance being researched - yeah, I know that Crossbows were historically available earlier, but their use seemed to come into play large-scale during the Middle Ages)

Another thing to note is that you are at the stage of the game where there is a lot more to do, due to the size of your empire. I usually play for an hour a night and can only do 10-15 turns during that time, unlike a few weeks ago when I could get through a lot more turns during that time...

Originally posted by Bluevoss
On the other hand, the computer took one city and tried for two more. Gotta love him for his efforts. I managed to get all the scrap units together and attack him and take the city back, but now we are both reeling from our war. Good thing.

In my current game, I had a longstanding peace with the Minoans, who are directly north of me (100-150 turns). We were able to trade tech too. I had a longstanding war with the Romans who are on both my eastern and western front, so maintaining peace to the north was very important to me because the bulk of my forces were drawn up against the Romans on the east and the west. From out of nowhere, a stack of 10 Minoan units marches into the heart of my Empire, with smiling faces. I threw them an advance - the next I see is that force take two of my best central cities. I got them back, but the damage was done, due to the Building Destroyer code. Now I have to refocus my priorities to this new threat.

Actually, the Minoans are one of the smaller civs too. Logically, they should of ridden my coattails. But their action is a good illustration of the unpredictability of human nature, and is one of the reasons why I am happy with what is occuring.

Originally posted by Bluevoss
Another minor point - Im in tribunal empire and wanted to go to monarchy. In the "Comparisons" (where you enect the new government) it shows monarchy as putzy - not as much food, military, etc, etc. Yet in the comparison sheet, it looks like Monarcy is better. Are the game files still goofed up?

I have not been able to figure out just how those settings are established and changed in the 'Comparisons' menubox, and would like to get that info to be more accurate.

The numbers provided for each government entry in the Great Library are accurate though, and the Government Analysis .pdf file that I provided for 1.31 is probably the best tool for comparison issues - though there are many small changes for the government settings from 1.3 to 1.31.

[Bluevoss]

Like you, I'm taking about 8-10 turns per advance. I rather like the Dark-age bottleneck - yeah, not much happened science-wise for me then.

I'm hoping to someday quit rowing these hepterenes around - we've have them for about a thosand years, and the macidonians and I have sunk hundreds of each other's. I thought we'd settled on peace, but as you had with your minoans, suddenly he punched through my boarder and took a city. Now I'm out to exterminate them from the map.

My only regret is that I didn't set the MaxCivs up so that we could see more of them spring up when a nation falls apart. I remember one game where the Carthaginians went down and spawned off about 2-3 new races. It was fun to push them over the edge on watch them shatter on the hard tile floor of reality.

I'm only getting about a hour or two in every night on this - sunday afternoon, I meant to only play for an hour and looked up and the afternoon was gone. What the heck? Anyway, I'm really enjoying this, and am looking forward to shifting up to 1.31 (just as soon as I finish this game - I gotta see how it comes out!).