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**Immortal Wombat** · February 1, 2002, 15:10

Wow, great post Dave

I think you are right. The mods would be hard to combine, but a balance of what's available makes for a great game.

Btw, you have the WonderUnits in two categories, just to clarify, the code would not be hard to implement, the adding of all the black-background graphics and additions to wonders.txt, units.txt and uniticon.txt would be harder. If you wanted, it would be possible to convert existing MedMod units to wonderunits though, a lot more easily.

**Martin Gühmann** · February 1, 2002, 17:38

[/SIZE=1]Originally posted by hexagonian[/SIZE]
(A sidenote - the strength of the Mods in terms if the AI performance lie in the fan-created SLIC files and the following text files. Concentrate on these text files and you will boost the AI.)

strategies.txt
Goals.txt

Const.txt
DiffDb.txt
Risks.txt
BuildListSequences.txt

(Realize that you cannot simply use the strategies.txt and Goals.txt files from the Mods as they stand for your own setup, because there are entries in those files that are built in to the structure of the Mod for which they were created - however, the numerical settings in those files can be cut and pasted into the default files to boost the AI.)

Yes slic is just one component, these text files are also improtant. I already have my own GoodMod version of the Const.txt, strategies.txt, Goals.txt and BuildListSequences.txt. The base was a MM2_strategies.txt, I added my own modifications concerning settlers, numbers of transporters, some minor goal modifications. I added the build list sequences of player1 and his new goals I also created my own new goals. (Now the AI should be able to use franchise and can throw parties for example and of course that required a modified Goals.txt), than I added your force matches and your goals priorities and execution numbers (and I thuoght the adjustments that I made at Christmas were radical that should explain why your AI is so aggressive) so finally I think I got the best of all mods. Oh and of course I had to modify the strategies.txt entries to make it possible to use them with the default game.

Now I have to correct your list Dave:

Player1's AI PW boost in MedPack2 that is also true for Commerce Improvements for AI's. There is an version of the GoodMod slic in MedPack but he did not added the new trade goods, and as he cut out to tileimprovements of the MM2_tileimp.txt that I sent him, the code does not work. However GoodMod offers an version for MedPack2 with all the new trade goods and a working version of the the goods improving code. So far I did not convberted my strategies.txt to MedPack2 so GoodMod for MedPack2 uses the MM2_strategies.txt, a task for the next version of GoodMod.

-Martin

**Locutus** · February 3, 2002, 15:01

Good stuff

I didn't actualy make any changes to the Cradle set-up though (none that are worth mentioning anyway). What I did do was come up with some sort of concept for a new mod: a mod which combines the best of Cradle and MedMod and adds a bunch of new stuff too. However, I did not actually make this mod yet, as I realized it would cost me more time than I can spare right now. I just put a lot of thought into the concepts of such a mod and made a bunch of notes while doing so. Since the topic is 'hot' now, I've decided to turn these notes into a preliminary design document so you guys can see it. I'm not sure if this will help anyone with anything but it's always interesting to read... (You'd better at least have a look at it, I spent almost my whole weekend making it and I'm gonna be pissed if everyone ignores it

)

Maybe, just maybe, this file will inspire someone, or better yet, a group of people, to take at least some of the ideas from this document and try to realize them. If not in a new best-of-all-worlds mod, then as part of Cradle, MedMod, some other mod or even as 'independent' features...

You can read the design document here (Ambitious? What, me? Nah, I'm not ambitious, what gives you that idea?

)

**Immortal Wombat** · February 3, 2002, 17:29

This list is far from complete and needs to be greatly refined

Ambitious? Maybe a little. Broken down between a few people it should only take a year perhaps..

**child of Thor** · February 3, 2002, 18:38

Locutus, excellent info in the design doc - that's the game of 'Civ' i always wanted to play! Between all you modding guys CTP2 is way better than it was - shame on Acti'no'vision to waste such a good game.One thing that has always slightly hit a nerve when playing any of the 'Civ' + CTP titles has been meeting any of the historically 'new' nations say way back in time before they should actually exist!would it be possible to only let these nations
'evolve' later;say through maybe choices on the tech-tree,city rebellion, the falling apart of a large ancient civ or maybe a combination of all! I know this is potentially a can of worms(on many levels) but after all the hard work done to make units etc more realistic, its still not quite right somehow when my Mongol hordes have to be diplomatic with Abe Lincon for example - whats the modders thoughts on this?

Doh! Just downloaded and played Cradle for the first time(i'm new to this mod stuff

) and it mostly addresses the above for me! Still if your civilisations could evolve, maybe following historical examples or some other template it might work well? The disscusion on a hybrid Cradle/MedMod didn't cover this possibility.

**Locutus** · February 5, 2002, 18:20

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Ambitious? Maybe a little.

Hehe, I was mainly referring to the title and motto, but yeah, I guess that's part of the deal to

Broken down between a few people it should only take a year perhaps..

Well, what's stopping us? It's not like Activsion's gonna beat us to it

Originally posted by child of Thor
its still not quite right somehow when my Mongol hordes have to be diplomatic with Abe Lincon for example - whats the modders thoughts on this?

Well, your example is rather poor since the Mongols were still quite powerful in India only 70 years before the American declaration of independence

I get your point though. However, without a system like in Clash of Civilizations you can't properly model such a thing in a game like Civ; although striving for historic accuracy is good, it's still a game, not a history simulation. There are thousands of other things about Civ that are extremely unrealistic but something that would be extremely realistic wouldn't be fun anymore...
In reality there were thousands and thousands of tribes and cultures, which all have in some form or another been around for a long time, but only a few dozen of these groups, a few hundred at most, eventually evolved into what we would call a civilization. CtP can only handle 32 civs (and even that only on high-end machines) so the degree to which you can model the rise and fall of civilizations is rather limited.

But even when you forget about that, there are problems. Sure, it would be nice to see a big empire loose a few cities which form a new civ, but if too many cities go, the fun for the owner of this civ will be gone (if it's a human) as (s)he'll experience major setbacks without good reason or being able to do anything about it ("Bang, you're dead"). For the AI players: the smaller the civ, the weaker it is, so as far as they are concerned merging is a better option than splitting (but this would, if used too often, ruin the fun for the human player again). So it's a very delicate balance that would be quite difficult to realize. To some extend I've tried to model it in the design doc but it would be quite a challenge to get right and even then it's not nearly as historically accurate as you'd like it to be (same story with trade, my biggest 'historical pet-peeve').

**Dale** · February 5, 2002, 21:29

Locutus:
Man, that's ambitious! It almost sounds like you're proposing a new game, not just a MOD.

Anyways, here's a few thoughts for you on religion:

What about religions and governments being very closely entwined. Basically what I mean is some government/religion combos work better than others:
- Islam works well with Patriarchy, Dictatorship, Clergy.
- Christianity works well with Republic, Democracy.
- Communism works as a negative on all religion.

Also, if you need some help, let me know.

**child of Thor** · February 5, 2002, 21:47

Locutus,
o.k. i should have specified 'Genghis khan' + 'Abe lincoln'

I don't think they would have met!And as to the other stuff well, i'm looking for that 'ultimate' civ experience ya know.Start 7000bc - advance 5yrs per turn, change leader name every 50yrs or so,did they have any heirs?maybe change nations name+'personality', have to go through about a thousand tech advances and finish about 3000ad having colonised our solar system(

)kind of thing.Basically slow it down but fill it full of decisions, none of this rush to tanks and conquer.I think the origonal Civ had more feeling of accomplishment(X-factor) to it than either Civ2,CTP or the rest or maybe thats just time(past) speaking?

**Pedrunn** · February 5, 2002, 22:25

Trade Goods

Trade is a very important aspect in almost every large civilization that ever existed (in fact, recent archeological research at Caral (Peru) shows that trade (as opposed to war, what was previously assumed) is probably why civilizations came into existance in the first place), so it should be very important in this game as well. The GoodMod should be used to make tradegoods valuable commodities to have in a city radius; trade goods should be used as strategical resources for building certain units (and preferably be exchangeable through diplomacy); trade should be very profitable for all parties involved (regard, gold, science, polulation); Knowledge and 'culture' in (major) trade cities should flourish and population grow fairly easily (immigration of both native and foreign traders). Coastal and river cities should somehow automatically get a boost in trade.

I want to be alive to see this feature implemented for CTP2.

maybe change nations name+'personality', have to go through about a thousand tech advances and finish about 3000ad having colonised our solar system(

)kind of thing.

I miss the CtP1 space layer so much!

Yet even if we could get it back the AI would never no how to use it.

i should have specified 'Genghis khan' + 'Abe lincoln' I don't think they would have met!

The main idea of civ games is re-write history and not re-live it

**hexagonian** · February 6, 2002, 13:04

When you say ambitious...

Speaking from experience, the most time-consuming aspect of Modding for me was setting up the structure of the Mod (tech tree/units/buildings/wonders, etc.)

Actually, you do have a very good base to work from (MedMod) in regards to the tech tree/units/buildings/wonders. It seems that there would be very little work involved in adapting MedMod to your setup. (Since you would be retaining most of the units in MedMod, for example, adding a few new ones would be easy). Existing Buildings/Wonders can be edited to reflect the new stats.

And since most of the strengths of Cradle are tied into the SLIC files as well as changes in specific txt files, that would be easy to set up too.

(Another thing - for instance, if you want to incorporate the governments from Cradle into your setup, I would be willing to enter the data into the existing MedMod file(s) and send them back to you). At that point, you would still have to make the numerical adjustments to your setup, but at least the files will not be crashing.)

The bulk of the work would now be in the SLIC area, because it is the triggers that you are proposing that will be the strength of this Mod. So if you can get a group of SLIC writers together to work on specific aspects of the game, then this project can be pulled off.

(...and Dale may be back - this is a nice carrot to wave in front of him to get in involved!)

One thing I would like to say regarding the creation of in-game events such as religious uprisings/weather triggers/archeological finds, etc. These events should have a VERY high priority in this Mod because these events will give CTP2 the atmosphere that some people have justly critisized the CTP series lacks. There is a certain amout of tedium that does occur in these types of games, and adding the random events will spice things up. (This is one thing that makes EU2 such a enjoyable game for me - the addition of actual historical events that affect the game.) And yes, they can be either negative or positive. Even if the event only has a minor effect on your civ, it still creates something of interest to the player.

**Locutus** · February 6, 2002, 19:30

Geez, guys, be careful now, you might actually convince me to start working on this

Dale,

Originally posted by Dale
Man, that's ambitious! It almost sounds like you're proposing a new game, not just a MOD.

Anyways, here's a few thoughts for you on religion:

What about religions and governments being very closely entwined. Basically what I mean is some government/religion combos work better than others:
- Islam works well with Patriarchy, Dictatorship, Clergy.
- Christianity works well with Republic, Democracy.
- Communism works as a negative on all religion.

D'oh! That was my original idea, the building idea came later. Forgot to properly write it all down in the design doc. The Christianity & Islam advances and Theocracy & Caliphate governments from Cradle gave me this idea in the first place... I originally planned on having only 1 government, 1 building, possibly 1 unit (Crusader vs Mameluke or Camel Rider) and changes in diplomatic behaviour, but the longer I think about it, the cooler I think it would be to flesh this religion concept out even further. Adding more governments like you suggest is very tempting...

Also, if you need some help, let me know.

Cool, you ARE back

Well, that alone makes it tempting to actually start making this...

child of Thor,

Originally posted by child of Thor
o.k. i should have specified 'Genghis khan' + 'Abe lincoln'

I don't think they would have met!

Actually, Genghis Khan did some amazing things that no man had ever done before or was ever able to do again. Had he not fallen of his horse, who knows?

And as to the other stuff well, i'm looking for that 'ultimate' civ experience ya know.Start 7000bc - advance 5yrs per turn, change leader name every 50yrs or so,did they have any heirs?maybe change nations name+'personality', have to go through about a thousand tech advances and finish about 3000ad having colonised our solar system( )kind of thing.Basically slow it down but fill it full of decisions, none of this rush to tanks and conquer.

So, basically, what you want is to play a game that takes you your whole life to finish?

I think the origonal Civ had more feeling of accomplishment(X-factor) to it than either Civ2,CTP or the rest or maybe thats just time(past) speaking?

I dunno about accomplishment but it certainly had more atmosphere (I still play it occasionally), and that's exactly one of the main issues that this design document tries to address (making it actually work of course is a different thing entirely)...

Originally posted by Pedrunn
I want to be alive to see this feature implemented for CTP2.

Good to see I'm not the only one who appreciates the importance of trade

Originally posted by hexagonian
Speaking from experience, the most time-consuming aspect of Modding for me was setting up the structure of the Mod (tech tree/units/buildings/wonders, etc.)

Although those are reassuring words, I'm not too sure about that. You got the structure pretty much straightened out ages ago, you're still tweaking the AI and stuff... Granted, it doesn't require you to work full-time but you're still more or less obliged to dedicate a certain amount of time to it.

(Another thing - for instance, if you want to incorporate the governments from Cradle into your setup, I would be willing to enter the data into the existing MedMod file(s) and send them back to you). At that point, you would still have to make the numerical adjustments to your setup, but at least the files will not be crashing.)

Are governments that much of a pain then? Well, if I'm gonna make this mod, I'm gonna need all the help I could get so I would most certainly appreciate it.

The bulk of the work would now be in the SLIC area, because it is the triggers that you are proposing that will be the strength of this Mod. So if you can get a group of SLIC writers together to work on specific aspects of the game, then this project can be pulled off.

Yes, for this mod much of the work would be SLIC work, which fortunately is familiar terrain for me. So far the amount of code I've produced for CtP (1 & 2) has been very limited since I keep focussing on things that are hard to do (PBEM, Flat maps, terrain-dependent Elite Units, due to various bugs Militia code too). Much of the code in this mod would be comparatively easy to do so I could produce code much faster. Especially if I can get some help I think this part of the mod will not be that big a deal, although it would still take a lot of time...

One thing I would like to say regarding the creation of in-game events such as religious uprisings/weather triggers/archeological finds, etc. These events should have a VERY high priority in this Mod because these events will give CTP2 the atmosphere that some people have justly critisized the CTP series lacks. There is a certain amout of tedium that does occur in these types of games, and adding the random events will spice things up. (This is one thing that makes EU2 such a enjoyable game for me - the addition of actual historical events that affect the game.) And yes, they can be either negative or positive. Even if the event only has a minor effect on your civ, it still creates something of interest to the player.

You're absolutely right, I agree that a lot of these sorts of things would be required.

**hexagonian** · February 7, 2002, 17:03

Originally posted by Locutus
Although those are reassuring words, I'm not too sure about that. You got the structure pretty much straightened out ages ago, you're still tweaking the AI and stuff... Granted, it doesn't require you to work full-time but you're still more or less obliged to dedicate a certain amount of time to it.

Are governments that much of a pain then? Well, if I'm gonna make this mod, I'm gonna need all the help I could get so I would most certainly appreciate it.

The actual time to plan and set up the files (including what to include, the progression of the tech tree , development of new governments and so forth) took a lot of time to draw up and data enter - plus there was a learning curve for me to understand what files needed to be worked on.

Both Cradle and MedMod rewrote huge chunks of the game. Once that was in place, the work was more along the lines of playtesting, which wasn't so bad. At that point, the files were easy to alter.

We both agree that MedMod is a good base to work from for your Mod. If you provide me good documentation as to what you want to remove or add (using MedMod files as your base) then I probably can set the following files up without too much difficulty.

Advances
Governments
Units
Building
Wonders

Of course, the amout of work increases the more you edit/add/subtract, but I'm getting the impression that you will be retaining most of MedMod (no need to reinvent the wheel either...)

At that point, you just run an open beta test and change things as they are reported in.

And I do not want to touch the Great Library either...Somebody else can have that job .

**Locutus** · February 7, 2002, 17:57

Dammit, Dave, you're making it really hard for me NOT to do this now

But before I can even start on this, I still have a few other things on my to-do list that I promised various people to do, I don't want to postpone those things too long anymore (most important among those things are finishing the SLIC manual, writing a column on CtP2 modding and making the PBEM Human-human diplomacy mod).

I'm not the kind of person to rush into anything so the first task of this project would be to make a decent design doc. That's something I can work on while I'm clearing up my to-do list, that should be entirely possible. By the time a more or less complete design doc is done I'll hopefully have my to-do list more or less cleared up and if there's still an interest in this project by then, I'll actually set aside my sanity and actually start making this mod

**WesW** · February 8, 2002, 00:54

It may take me the weekend to read all this, though I will post my thoughts as soon as I can.

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