New Ancient Mod in the works

[hexagonian]

Harlan,

I definitely want to add Islam to the tree and the government Caliphate, which was actually my 'test' Government when I was first attempting to modify files.

As for the Dark Ages setup, I was using it as a means to extend the playing time between the Ancient and Early Medieval units. Someone made the suggestion about how he used that format to simulate the period of time between the collaspe of the Roman Empire and the rise of the Feudal state in Europe. I was looking at it from a play standpoint first, but since I am now planning on filling out the tech tree post-ancient, this will be re-evaluated. This whole thing initially started out as only in the Ancient age but appears to be growing.

I may also drop down the length of the game from the 1000 turns it is now, to something lower. It's actually nice to have an option to play a shorter game.

I will definitely welcome a 'floor plan' for the Medieval Techs from anyone. My first concern now is to make sure that the basic structure is sound, especially in terms of combat, pollution, and happiness. (especially happiness) I am using the suggestion that Wes made regarding using pollution to simulate happiness problems, as this was something that really griped me when I first played the game. So if you are playtesting, please note how those issues are going. I want the player to have to struggle with infrastructure problems. I may have to make entertainers available earlier. Please also note if the AI is building wonders.

I do not have the raw images, as when I started this, it was going to be for personal use, but I will send you what I do have.

Diodorus,
Thanks for the suggestions and I will be incorporating them on the next update. I went to the bookstore on Friday night and got the info which I had incorporated in my current update. I went with the term Palantini, but will probably change it to the more formal and recognizable sounding Praetorians. Same with the phalanx going to Hypaspists.

The War Galley will go to Heptiremes, as they are designed with bombard capabilities, and this fits the bill nicely.

I also do welcome anyone to take a look at the various text files in the govern.txt. What I did there was take the more advanced governments and used them as a base for the early ones. I also tweaked some numbers in there, as I printed them out and had them all in front of me at one time. If anything seems unusual, then notify me.

And make sure you are using the version 1.02. (see above post for link).

[hexagonian]

For those running into the Saved Game Reloading Bug, this is a workaround that was suggested by BlueO. Unfortunately, you also have to make sure that you do the first suggestion every time you play, or you will not be able to reenter the game at that point

===================================

The fix I use, and I mentioned this before in the gu spr thread (and someone else mentioned it in another thread), is to make sure you launch a new game with the mod first, before loading any saved files. Then after you started the new game with the mod, load up the saved file. Doing this, will ensure your save file continues to work, after you exit the program. However, if you forget to do this even once, and overwrites your save files, that save file will not work, next time you load it. It is a hassle, but it works... for me at least, haven't heard anyone else having success loading up saved files. shrug..

The other fix is to overwrite all the files in your ctp2data directory with the mod files. This was the method I used, before I discovered how to put mod files in the scenario directory. This method had worked for my mod without any fancy tricks. The one big drawback with this method is, you can't load any other scenarios.

You'll run into a bunch of errors, if you try to load other scenarios.

[Flash]

Hex,
Have you ever played the game Legions? It have all kinds of ancient units.
For instance, Convicts (chained in position for defence), Cattle (stampead into enemy position), Flaming pigs, ect. Combat values on some units alittle off for my taste but convertable.

Flash

[hexagonian]

How far have you gotten into the game Chris...any crashes with 1.02?

Now if I can get ahold of the CTP1 .tgas for the Knight, or, for that matter, some of the other tgas.

The Zulu warrior mixup happened because I had downloaded every sprite that had been created, either for CTP1, CTP2 or the Med Mod. I downloaded the sprites from the MedMod2 zipped sprite file and the numbering setup wasn't clear to me, so I must of got the wrong sprite in the wrong folder. I will fix this up once this gets close to a final release.

Are the sprites for the CTP1 and CTP2 Phalanx very similar to the point of causing confusuion. I will take a look at both this week to see if there is enough differentiation. Same with the Legion sprites. I was going to use the Phalanx sprite from the Alenander Scenerio, but they looked too much like the Legion/Palantini sprites, especially when all are in play.

The Horse Archer was my Chariot sprite until Tom came out with the stunning Chariot sprite

I'm currently pretty happy with the number of units in the ancient age. If you can come up with a justification for additional historical units based on gameplay, I will see what I can do. (The Ancient Age has 3 clearly defined Combat Unit trees now)

And the combat differences between the units is smaller in this mod, so more units might not serve a purpose. That is one thing I really want some reports on - how combat plays out. Differnent styles will alter perceptions, especially if you are a defensive or offensive player.

My son plays AOE2. I played AOE but was never very good at it. I have the reflexes of a rock. But its a cool game, nevertheless. I usually tell my son what to do as he is playing. (usually reminding him to collect more resources!!!!!)

[Dale]

Started a game with your mod last night. 8 civs, huge map, only on hard. I also played it with the Diplomod V3.2 active. Here's how it went.

First thing I noticed was how slow progression is. While not a BAD thing, it certainly provides a different element into early strategy. I started off my first city with the standard warrior/warrior/settler/settler/wonder routine. I picked up a couple of extra spearmen within about 20 turns so I was off 'n runnin' with the exploration.

My city growth has slowed dramatically. That's one thing I noticed early on. No longer can you do the settler/settler/settler build queue without thinking of major effects. Also, happiness base being increased is excellent because now I can't have the sliders at the standard left/right/left settings. I actually had to compromise between food/production/wages. Well done.

One gripe I do have is it would be usefull to have a two-square viewing unit at the start. It's too annoying moving units back 'n forth exploring. Just a gripe.

Here's what transpired:
At the end of 170 turns, I'm equal first in rating with two other civs. I have three neighbors, and have traded blows with all three. At one time I had a two front war. It's actually very challanging. I'm having a lot of fun. Also, (NOTE: I'm not playing with frenzy AI in this mod) the AI will attack viciously with stacks of 8-10!!!! I was shocked! I had to up my defenses up to 8-12 units. What I have to do now to hold onto my cities is build warriors/slingers in my cities till they reach 12, take 4 out, station ready to receive units from other cities (to make a stack) and keep building units. It's hard to get round to building improvs since the AI is attacking relentlessly. We have short 20 turn wars, but they are vicious, and usually result in a lot of city swapping. However, I am making inrounds and have captured two capitals. The third capital is just too far away at this point. It's a LOT of fun! Also, I seem to have two trecherous civs and one honourable civ. The honourable civ will declare war but the other two will just attack. Even as far as attrocities killing civilians. It's great, I've never seen a 'non-frenzy' AI doing these sorts of things.

Diplomacy with the diplomod is a lot of fun too. What's been happening is I will get some diplomacy done through peace-times, but during war all I get is angry demands for advances/gold/cities. I've been able to get a couple of maps and a few advances, but most of the reception is negative. Refusing the AI in peace-time has most-often precipitated war.

Overall, I'm enjoying this mod a LOT! It's great fun and excellent work Hexa! Can't wait for the next part. BTW, the diplomacy mod works perfectly with Cradle mod.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

[Chris B]

(please don't take offense to this, i really appreciate your mod)
Ive been doing a lot of playtesting in your mod, and i have some comments. I realize its alfa, as you may do these things later, but i have some suggestions. The ctp1 phalanx would be more realistic for the hoplite (you could ame your existing one the militia), and the ctp1 knight for the cataphract. the horseman i think should be heavy cavalry and your cataphract should be horseman. Also, you could include the ctp1 legion, TD swordsman, and Alexander scen Phalanx as units. The zulu warrior has a javelineer sprite, which is incorrect. I woukd like to see horse archer and fyrdman in there as well. Your tech tree is awesome!!!!! As soon as this mod gets further on in development, I'll use it to base my developing Persian Wars scenario on (I'll quote you). Sory, i don't mean to be such a whiner.
also, with all ou ideas, sounds like somebody else here plays AOE
[This message has been edited by Chris B (edited February 05, 2001).]

[Lord of the Isles]

Can I ask you to put version 1.02 at Apolyton or King Arthur's Court? Puuuullleeaasseee?

I keep getting "server not responding" from webfolders.mydocsonline.com and the current stuff at the two CtPII sites seems to be version 1.0.

[hexagonian]

Dale,

Thanks for the report, this is what I am looking for.

I am especially happy to hear that the AI is working this way in terms of aggressiveness without the FrenzyMod. This is fantastic.

The rate is intentional. You start out with the ability to build very little. (Most of the time you can only build Shrines, Warriors and Spearmen.) What is also good to hear is that you have to expend a lot of resources to defend what you have. Barbs are a constant irritant. I do not intend them to take the place of a civ in a game either, but the combo of Barbs and aggressive civs makes it difficult to expand militarily.

I also pushed back some city improvements until later in the game. You only get 5% each from a Bazaar and Marketplace, so you end up spending more production/upkeep for the same benefit you would normally get from a Bazaar in the default game. There was an obscene amout of gold in the default game. Trade is further back too. Add to this your base happiness is 75 instead of 73, and there are some decisions to be made.

Do keep an eye on pollution/unhappiness. I am trying to use pollution to simulate unhappiness, and I dropped the bonuses for happiness improvements. It is my intent that you will possibly need to use more entertainers, and I want this to happen in the game.

Sorry, but vision is tied into range and movement ability, so the Warriors will not be getting binoculars.

I have yet to touch the Diplomatic aspects of the game, and I would not even know where to start. I haven't tried your mod yet. I would be willing to incorporate your SLIC coding into this, but one thing I was concerned about was reports of one-sided trades with the AI concerning maps and advances. Have these issues been resolved? I would like that the AI be somewhat resistant to early map/advance exchanges, as I want there to be a gap between the AI and the human player for as long as possible. In the harder settings the AI does start with an advantage too. Generally, when the human can overtake the AI in this area, the game starts to become one-sided, in favor of the human.

I would definitely welcome you to be willing to develop that aspect of this game further. I have no clue how to work in SLIC either.

I will now be working on the Tech Tree for the Medieval Age, which will take some time to do.

LotI
I will send the version 1.02 to OmniGod tomorrow, as I have to redo the units Spec sheet, but I will email you what I have today. Simply replace ALL the txt files from 1.0 with the ones from 1.02. I do not know if the Zip program will do this for you - generally I unzip on my desktop and do a cut and paste.

Happy Gaming

[Dale]

Hexa:

Thanks for your comments.
It's certainly shed a little light on the game I'm playing (didn't have any time last night to continue) with your goals brought out.

One thing I have noticed that I believe needs to be fixed is that for some reason the AI's will not persue building the early new wonders. I had no competition in wonder building (not that I really had a chance to ).

On my diplomacy mod, the final (3.2) is completed, fixes those 'free-gimmies' problems. However, due to the extended anchient age, one change I would definitely do is to extend the length of the map-swapping catch (which slows the AIs swapping to almost nothing for the first 300 turns) to a much longer span. This will fit in with the extended time-line. What do you feel? Also, the diplomacy mod fits seemlesly in. So if you play with the diplomacy mod in your main files, cradle fits in without any manipulation.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

[Harlan]

Warriors wouldn't need binoculars to see farther than one space. Presumably, the units that have extra vision aren't actually going to every square they see, but rather learn from people they come into contact with what the surrounding terrain is like. That's why units like the Spy have good vision, not because they're personally covering every tile themselves. Of course for some units, you could also attribute the extra vision to small reconaissance parties constantly coming and going from the main body.

With the Warrior, one could justify having them see farther, by saying they're relatively primitive and thus can easily establish a dialogue with the people living outside the civilizations (the kind you find when you living in the "huts") and get more information out of them, whereas city folk like the Hoplite would not.

[hexagonian]

Dale,

The Diplo settings sound very good. Is there a way to bundle your work with all that I have here, or do you recommend keeping the elements separate?

The Wonder issue is definitely something that was in the back of my mind as an issue that may have to be adjusted.

A question - when you started building a Wonder (and I'm assuming that you were using a good production city to do so) how many turns would it take you to complete it. There is a tolerance level in which a civ will not build a wonder (based on the number of turns that it takes to complete it) If the AI civ cannot build the wonder it the alloted turns, it will not do so (at least according to the coding that I saw) I may have to bump that up to a higher level. There is also a list where you can change the priorities of what a civ will build, which I may have to make some switches to.

The WonderBuildList has all the entries to it though. I'm assuming that Wonders are not tied into Slic either, because I went through all the Slic files and couldn't find anything in them related to wonders.

Harlan, in working with Wes, has he run into the same problem?

I also had given a lot of thought to the Warrior vision aspect. I know for a lot of players, warriors were very valuable because of the extended vision, but that is what makes getting to Projectile Weapons and Horse Riding a priority now. If I do increase it back to 2, there will be a huge price jump for them.

Related to that - In your combat, has the AI been stacking with a combo of ranged and unranged units?

[Dale]

Hexa:
Ahhh...... the wonders (in my two best cities) were averaging from 50 to 70 turns per wonder. That's out of the default range for the AI I'm sure. Both cities were size 8 cities with at least two mines.

I can see your point now about the warriors. I withdraw my request.

It's probably better to leave the two mods seperate. A lot of people have the diplomacy mod already and it may just create confusion if it's installed in the main ctp2_data program directory and under the scenario as well.

The stack combos I was getting attacked by had both slingers and warriors. I came across the odd spearman, but not many. Cities would have a higher concentration of slingers than field stacks.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

[OmniGod]

While I've not had a chance to play a game in a week or so (dam project) this is sounding pretty good. The file in the db has been removed and all future data for the mod will be found at King Arthur's and I'll update it to the most recent as soon as I get the files from hexagonia. I'm also going to split the files ala WesW for units/text/pics at the request of hex so as to decrease the amount of actual ddl'ing the testers have to do when an update is available. All this will be done as soon as I get the next update. Enjoy the game, it's sounding good.

[Lord of the Isles]

First of all, a public thanks to all those working to improve the game, especially Hexagonian, Dale, Wes and BlueOrange. Wonderful work all of you.

I managed to get a few hours in with the Ancient mod last night. I have DiploMod 3.2 as well (so it's a similar environment to Dale's) and have been playing on hard, regular size world, 8 civs (assuming there aren't settings in the Ancient Scenario that override these). The only bad news is that about 70 turns into my first game it crashed back to the desktop. The AI was moving and a new civ had just moved a mounted unit next to one of my cities. This is the first time I've had CtPII crash on me in 5 weeks of playing, including the last 4 days with DiploMod installed. I have a saved game from about 10 turns before the crash and will go back to it when I have time and see what happens the second time through it.

But all the other news is good. I'm up to 180 turns in my second game and no problems so far. It's *fun* and much more challenging than any of the unmodified games I played. One unusual thing in this game is that the Barbarians have conquered all but me and two other civs: I have 12 cities, Cubans 2, Australians 1 and the Barbarians 23. From memory there were a couple of Barbarian-captured cities about turn 100, which isn't so abnormal, but from that point on they started to overrun the map. They were using single Warriors only (but increasing numbers of them) until about turn 140 when I began to notice a few slingers and some stacking as well. There have been a few size 3 stacks and the biggest was 6 (though still a lot of single units). It may be that the stacking is accidental: the Barbarian AI happens to move 3 units to end their turn on the same square. Next turn they often go their seperate ways again (though some stacks have stayed around for a few turns). Haven't seen any Barbarian spearmen yet. Oh, and one other thing I noticed was that the Barbarians often bypassed a heavily defended (8 unit) border city to head into my Empire to attack a couple of less heavily defended cities (2 units each). Imagine, a sensible strategy from the CtPII AI!

I like all of the modifications I've noticed. Slower growth and the higher unhappiness setting have forced me to do more micromanagement of both individual cities and the empire settings, and the new tech tree is great. The Diplomods have been giving me lots of map info - more than I expected after Dale said he'd tried to lessen that. Two points: though (I think) civil disorder due to unhappiness doesn't work because of Activision's stupidity I try to play as though it does, always adjusting settings to prevent cities appearing in red in the resources list.
And I don't take advantage of AI civs accepting unfair swaps (like advances for 100 gold or to see my map that they already saw just 5 turns ago). It would be good if they *didn't* give advances for so little though.

I agree with Dale that the two mods should be kept seperate. And keep the Warrior with 1 space vision.
I've noticed the same thing that Dale did with regard to Wonders: no other civs started any (or at least I got no messages about them). I've built three and have one more in the works - three of them were listed around 40-70 turns to build but when I built the Pyramids it was only 30 or so turns at my most productive city. Of course, with the Barbarians rampant I guess none of the other civs had the breathing space to start Wonders.

Minor points: though I have AncientMod 1.02 the notes with the Scenario when launching a new game say Base 1.0 or similar. I've been impressed with your new entries in the Library but one or two links have taken me to the wrong places (will try to remember to write down these to provide more detail). And the new Wonders I've come across (Olympics, Stonehenge) are fantastic ideas, though matching movies would be great.
Good heavens, I can't believe I mentioned such a minor point - what an ungrateful swine!

[hexagonian]

Thanks for the input.

There is a setting where somebody can set the chance for a riot when the happiness hits below 75. This can be raised, I just have to think where I saw it.

Regarding Barbarians
I've noticed that when a Barb takes over a city, it will continually pump out units. It still seems though that the AI is somewhat incapable of handling all of the pressure. I had changed the build priority for the AI to start off with building a garrison unit.

Has anyone tries the game on the lower Barb settings? The reason why I asked is because of the report from Dale that he was seeing the AI fielding some good stacks and that the AI was using them to attack. Given the choice between having rampant Barbs or an aggressive AI, I would choose the latter. There are ways to drop the intensity of the Barbs too.

Regarding Wonders
The default for when an AI builds a wonder is at 35 turns for most of the strategies - so anything above that and they will not do it, and this is showing up in the playtesting. I do not know how to program the AI to do what I normally did in PBEMs - start building something else and then make the jump to a wonder as I get close. The AI will also Rush Buy wonders, but it does not seem to be able to think long term. I have two choices - either drop the cost of Wonders or I will probably boost the number of turns allotted to the AI.

I had weakened the effects of most of the wonders too. There was a very good post awhile back in the CTP1 Forums regarding Wonders, and how they are really unbalancing.