Automatic unit upgrades to end phalanx-tank

[wheathin]

If we get a way to automatically upgrade a unit, maybe we can put an end to the phalax-tank debate.

Take one of the "extra" unit sprites we have for each age and use it like a GI unit. We already have stationary militia unit in the cities. This unit would be created from the upgrade of any unit more than two ages old, and would be a low-grade attacker.

I.e., (from Ctp1) after you get gunpowder and musketeers, your old phalanxes and legions could be upgraded to pikemen - older units and cannon fodder, but not totally anachronistic. After you get Cavalry, your old javelin throwers and mounted archers are upgraded to Knights.

Infantry can always be given a pile of old hand weapons. Seige equipment and cannons becomes less useful, but the crews for them can be used as infantry. Horse units have at least one valuable asset: the horses! (I'm still unsure if, after the development of mechanized units, it'd be better to turn all cavalry into foot soldiers. Maybe after advanced armored units...) Old mechanized units (like tanks and such) are more like men on trucks - mechanized infantry. And ships and aircraft are so capital intensive that they just need to be scrapped.

I'm thinking:
All infantry and seige engines/cannon --> previous age attacking infantry (pikemen, etc.)
All horse units --> previous age mounted attacking unit (knights, cavalry)
Obsolete motorized units --> previous age motorized infantry units
Ships and air units are not upgraded

[wheathin]

I was thinking that tank units would not be provided as an upgraded unit. Obsolete tanks and artillery would be converted to not-quite-so-obsolete mechanized/infantry units. Obsolete seige engines and cannon units would be converted to not-quite-so-obsolete infantry units. Obsolete horse units are converted to not-quite-so-obsolete horse units, except cavalry, which when they are totally obsolete are converted to infantry units.

The effect would be mostly cosmetic, but it would certainly be welcome. Plus, it would ensure that AI civs don't fall too far behind. Sort of a poor-man's Leonardo's Workshop.

[Colonel Kraken]

Nice idea. I like it.

[phenyl]

this talk of upgrading seems to miss a certain point. civ covers a huge range of time. its not like an individual person is actually there throughout the evoloutionary process. (despite activisions sappy ficitonal narrator). its more like the garrisions themselves are "re-equipped" ...

take the RCMP (sorry) they dont all ride horses anymore, but they still wear red uniforms. (well, at least dress ones)...

the cost involved would be to re-equip existing battalions of folks, so its not so much re-training people as getting better stuff.

one thing to wonder about is non-military units. i.e. cleric -> tele-evangelist. possibly others that i havent thought about. its very do-able, but game play could be messed with for sure...

[Colonel Kraken]

I've heard a lot about automatically having a militia type unit in a city as soon as you build it. How is this done? (I know it's with slic, but . . .)

Having units automatically upgrade is a neat idea. Perhaps there would be a message box as soon as you get a pertinent advance that asks you, "You have discovered [a], would you like to upgrade all [x] units to [y]? The cost would be [n]". Of course there would be an associated cost for re-equipping the new units.

I like the idea of turning all my Lancers into Carbine carrying cavalry.

[Colonel Kraken]

You'll have to consider, though, that when a radically new unit comes out (e.g. tanks, subs) entirely new crews with new training will have to be obtained at substantial cost. I really don't think there is a way that you could simply take cavalry and turn them into tank drivers.

That gets me thinking. Wouldn't it be neat to have to build a "prototype" unit of a completely new class at a really high cost? This would simulate 1)building actual prototypes 2)developing the doctrine required to use the new type of unit 3)trial runs, developing how to incorporate the new unit into a formation.

This would NOT include going from, say, Hoplite to Pikeman, which is essentially the same unit.

Such upgrades would cost little. Cost would be associated with the cost of producing the new equipment, supplies, etc.
[This message has been edited by Colonel Kraken (edited December 11, 2000).]

[Colonel Kraken]

I think the point is not that we think that the same individuals are in our, say, Hoplite unit from 3000 to 2000 BC. That's preposterous. The point is an actual military UNIT maintains a history and provides a certain Esprit de Corps. This unit would serve as a cadre for the next type of unit.

Much as it is in the squadron I was part of in the Air Force. We obviously aren't the same people that were in the unit in 1943, but we certainly don't have the same equipment as we did then either. We are, however, still the 391st "Bold Tigers" which I think will stay the same through the history of the U.S. If the 391st has not been cut by Congress in 200 or 300 years, they'll still be around flying God knows what, but it'll still be the same proud 391st --different people, different equipment, same unit.

[wheathin]

My consideration was that *no* civ would keep phalanxes around for 3000 years. But I find myself doing that in many cases, usually providing martial law or slave oversight in my rear-line cities, or else just standing there to provide cover for my ranged units.

What these guys really are is just cannon fodder. They are no longer an elite unit with the best equipment. But there are always plenty of old weapons lying around. A "phalanx" in late 1800s could find many old muskets. Today, a rag-tag militia can always get ahold of boxes of rifles and AK-47s. These are not trained fighters, but they could still beat the crap out of some dudes with bronzes shields and spears.

It's just to make the game look more realistic; to keep all the units within a civ roughly contemporaneous.

[Elucidus]

I think its a good idea and I like it. But we have to see what kind of effect it will have on gameplay and how people will try to take advantage of it. The AI may not utilize it well. Maybe have the AI's units upgrade for free, I don't know. But we don't want to make the game any easier than it already is.

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Yours in gaming,
~Elucidus

[OmniGod]

quote: Originally posted by wheathin on 12-12-2000 09:31 AM What these guys really are is just cannon fodder. They are no longer an elite unit with the best equipment. But there are always plenty of old weapons lying around. A "phalanx" in late 1800s could find many old muskets. Today, a rag-tag militia can always get ahold of boxes of rifles and AK-47s. These are not trained fighters, but they could still beat the crap out of some dudes with bronzes shields and spears.

Can't hold it in.. hahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahaha... okay that's got to be one of the funniest paragraphs I've ever read... true yet so dam sarcastic.... thanks for the good laugh....

Omni
[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited December 12, 2000).]

[Alpha Wolf]

I had hoped that units would in a sense self destruct as their technology became more and more obsolete. it always amazed me at the end of CtP1 games how many archers and phalanxes I had just hanging around guarding checkpoints and interior cities. We already have a way to upgrade units by disbanding them while building a newer one.

[marc420]

Its too bad there isn't a way to upgrade the veteran units of one age with the weapons of the next.

It would seem that in history there are two paths a military can take to upgrade its units and equipment.

One is that the best, veteran, most experienced units get the newest and best equipment. Picture a Navy building a new class of warship, and putting its best captain in charge, and he gets to hand-pick officers and crew. Or perhaps the SS units in Germany getting first priority on the new Tiger tanks.

The other is that the military establishment rejects the new technology in favor of the traditional, leaving newly formed units, and officers outside the mainstream to adopt the new technology while the old guard refuses to adapt. Picture Gen Billy Mitchell and his fights to establish a US air force and strategic bomber force between the 1st and 2nd World Wars. Or maybe Liddell Hart and the British tankers between the wars.

CTP seems to follow the second, and never the first. I always end up with a veteran Fire Trireme sailing around an ocean of Ironclads waiting to either get sunk or disbanded.

Too bad, I'd like to see a country be able to do the first path.

A couple of off the wall ideas. Make upgrading depended on other factors. Perhaps certain government types can upgrade and others can't. Perhaps you can upgrade if your military readiness is WAR, but not if its at PEACE.

marc

[wheathin]

Alpha: two problems with disband: the amount of resources recovered never comes close to the cost for a new unit, so why bother? And, you still have to build the new units, a time consuming ordeal.

If disband was an effective solution, more people would use it and they wouldn't always have so many archers and phalanxes walking around at the end of the game.

[Alpha Wolf]

quote: Originally posted by wheathin on 12-13-2000 11:40 AM Alpha: two problems with disband: the amount of resources recovered never comes close to the cost for a new unit, so why bother? And, you still have to build the new units, a time consuming ordeal. If disband was an effective solution, more people would use it and they wouldn't always have so many archers and phalanxes walking around at the end of the game.

It true that if you are trying to go from hoplites to tanks that it isnt worth it, but it seems that if you are going from one era to the next, its fairly useful. Then rush buy whatever is left and you have your updated unit. I do wish veteren units got more for disbanding than regular units tho.

i suspect alot of people are like me and just forget what units are where, (I still dont like this double clicking to see all the units in a city) and they just hang around until I notice them.

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History is written by the victor.