Poll: New units

[WesW]

Well people, what units need to be added to Ctp2
Please justify your answers in regards to how your proposed new units would address shortcomings in the current setup (this age doesn't have this unit type, or this unit is the premiere one in its field for too long, etc.).

[heardie]

Is the *.spr format the same for ctp2 as ctp1. If so I will make some spr's, not thta I have either ctp1 or 2 but I do use 3dmax, so making the 5 images shouldnt be a problemn. Also I have a kick-ass hellicopter raring to go!

[Locutus]

heardie,
Yes, the format is still the same. It would be great if you could make some new sprites, we could use some more graphics-designers for CtP(II). Particularly in the industrial/modern era it's hard to find decent sprites (sure, there's Harlan's WWII units but that doesn't quite cut it compared to the ones of CtP or Morgoths work).

Wes,
I think that what is really needed is to split the Ancient Age in two. I mean, even in the MedMod it covers 4500 years and there's quite a difference between the armies of 300 AD and those of 1000 BC. Using mainly Morgoths sprites I've come up with these units that would fit in nicely as a Stone/Bronze Age before the existing Ancient Age as it is in the MedMod:

Attack: Swordman
Defence: (Egyptian) Spearman
Ranged: Slinger
(possibly second Ranged unit: Archer and replace Archer from MedMod with Longbow Archer from Alexander the Great scenario)
Cavalry: Javelin Cavalry (replace Ancient Cavalry with Morgoths Heavy Cavalry)
Cavalry Archer: Horse Archer (from the Alexander the Great scenario)
Naval Warship: Coracle (standard CtPII sprite)
Naval Transport: Catamaran (again, from Alexander scenario)

Of course, the tech tree and everything else would have to be changed for this and more city improvements would be needed as well but I haven't thought too much about those yet.

[MarkG]

i would like to have a diplomat unit just to create embasies(leaving the "hold reception" ability for the real diplomat) from the very early....

[Drakenred]

quote: Originally posted by MarkG on 11-18-2000 10:50 AM i would like to have a diplomat unit just to create embasies(leaving the "hold reception" ability for the real diplomat) from the very early....

Speaking of that blasted diplomat, has anyone else run into probleks trying to get the Diplomat to a contry on another continent?, t tried to get him onto Irland and Scotland with the Boat, but by the time i could even get him on land, i had recived 3 Demands to remove my forces(First time i went ahead and did and had to start over) and found myself at war by the time i had him landed.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Locutus et al: I agree with reforming the Ancient period units (I did my graduate work on Alexander the Great, ancient military is something of a passion of mine!) but I think the biggest change needed is to insert an "Industrial" or "Gilded" Age between Renaissance and Modern. This would be the period of rifle/musket & bayonet-armed (but not automatic weapons) infantry, shock sword-armed cavalry, and effective smoothbore or rifled horse-drawn artillery: the period in "real" history between approximately 1700 and 1900 AD.
My 'first shot' at ancient changes is as follows (with some comments):
Neolithic/Bronze Age (first period in game):
Attack: Warrior (first available unit)
Attack: Sword/Axeman
Defense: Spearman (Egyptian/Sumerian)
Ranged: Archer
Flanker: Chariot
NOTE: Chariot would be the light Egyptian/Mid Eastern type, with a low attack/defense factor but also a low ranged factor - they're principle weapons are thrown javelins or bowmen.
Naval Warship: Trireme
Naval Transport: Coracle (or similar sail-powered vessel)
Iron Age (late Ancient period in game)
Attack: Hoplite
NOTE: The Greek phalanx of armored spearmen was designed for an all-out attack on level ground. They'd have the current wheeled vehicle terrain restrictions, but a higher attack than defense factor.
Defense: Peltast (spear and sword armed, low range factor with javelins: very effective behind city walls)
Special: Legion
NOTE: The Legion was the best all-around infantry unit in the ancient world: faster than the Phalanx, able to operate in all terrain, equal attack and defense factors. The Down Side: they have to always be kept at Full Strength, like Samurai or Knights - need constant, expensive drill and training to be effective.
Ranged: Longbowman
City Taker: Catapult
Flanker: Light Cavalry
NOTE: ancient javelin-armed with shield, no armor - fairly high speed, higher attack than defense factors.
Flanker Ranged: Horse Archer
Naval Warship: Longship
Naval Transport: Knorr or Junk (sail-powered)
Renaissance:
Attack: Musketeer
Defense: Pikeman
Special: Samurai
NOTE: Unlike the Legion, has higher attack and defense factor, always at Full Strength, but lower maintenance costs than Legion because Samurai, like Knights, pay for their own training and equipment.
Ranged: Bombard (early cannon)
Flanker: Knight
Naval Warship/Transport: Cog (sailed ship with towers, early cannon, can carry troops, cargo, and fight)
Industrial:
Attack: Rifleman
Defense: Rifleman
Ranged: Cannon
Flanker: Cavalry
Naval Warship: Ship of the Line
Naval Transport: Galleon or Clipper
NOTE: A Clipper Ship would make a @#&^% of a graphic, but was only used for a few years. The fat-bodied, sailing 'galleon' or 'Indiaman' would be a distinct graphic different from the Ship of the Line, and still useful, as sailing freighters were, right up through the first use of battleships.
Modern:
Attack: Infantryman
NOTE: WWII type with light MGs, rifles
Defense: Machinegunner
Special: Marines, Paratroops
Ranged: Artillery
Flanker: Tanks
Naval Warship: Battleship
Special Warships: Submarine, Destroyer, PT Boat?
Naval Transport: Freighter
Air Units: Fighter, Bomber

I also want Diplomats from very early in the game. The other Unconventional (Warfare) units I'd like to add, if I could figure out how to put them into the game, are, in the Industrial/Modern period:
Guerrilla Unseen, low attack and defense factors, can destroy Tile Improvements, foment revolt, lower Happiness.
Commando/Ranger Unseen, can do all of the above plus see and destroy Guerrillas, air drop like Paratroopers, and lower Health of military units with Special Attack (harassment). Would have very high and continuous Maintenance Costs, whereas Guerrillas cost almost nothing to maintain.
These are 'first thoughts' only, and I'll probably modify them based on what graphics are available (I am most decidedly NOT graphic-capable myself!) and what units are required to keep the game reasonably balanced. I've got to look back through my copious notes on the CivIII as well as the CtPII comments made over the past year to cull ideas...

[WesW]

I have had some interesting thoughts about unit ages. If we implement Locutus' militia triggers, they would relieve us of the drugery of having to upgrade our defensive units all the time, leaving us with our navies and when we want to gear up for war.
Here are some preliminary recommendations for land units:
Age------- Defensive--- Offensive--- Ranged------ Mtd Ranged----Flanker
Bronze---- Spearman--- Swordsman---- Slinger----- Chariot------ Light (Jav) Cavalry
Iron------ Hoplite---- Legion------- Archer------ Mtd Archer--- Heavy (Noble) Cavalry
Medieval-- Pikeman---- Samurai---- Catapault----- Horse Ar----- Knight
Renaissance ------Musketeer------ Ctp2 Cannon---- Dragoon----
Industrial ------Infantryman------- Ctp1-Cannon------Cavalry----
Genetic - Machine Gunner-Fascist-- Ctp1 Arty---- Ctp2 Arty---- Tank
Diamond - Plasmatica- Space Marine-War Walker--- Fusion Tank--- Hovertank

Other units:
Spy and Noble (re-named the Herald) from the Med mod.
I wish I had a Sabre Cavalry for the Renaissance Age, and a Carbine Cavalry (think of George Custer) for the late Napoleonic Era.
Use the Swarm as the Diamond age Paratrooper, and the Hover Infantry as that age's Marine.

There are a number of unit abilities that I think need to be changed from the current ctp2 setup, but I will let you guys comment on those until I get a manual to look at.

Air and sea units need to be re-done as well, but I will let people comment on the land units for right now.
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited November 20, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited November 20, 2000).]

[XMon]

Hey, in CTP, I did a couple of things like your proposed UW units. Kind of like the Guerilla, but for a different purpose/angle I made an Assassin unit. I used the Ecoterrorist sprite and the unit had low attack and defense, was stealth and could pillage and cause unhappiness (by the "conduct hit" order). It wasn't low cost/low support though.

Like the Commando/Ranger unit, I came up with a Special Forces unit (using the Marines sprite) that was stealth and could see all other stealth units. It had good attack and defense and could paradrop (sort of, I got rid of the paradrop function and replaced it with a C130 transport plane that could only carry a select few units) and I gave it a low valued ranged/bombard capability so it could harass (not kill) enemy units by stealth bombarding them and making them weaker. It's a blast to use! Cool to see other civs using it also.

I made a second such unit...the SEAL unit. The SEAL unit has a little bit more attack power and where the Special Forces unit can travel over land and mountain and bombard land/mountain/air...the SEAL can travel land (not mountain) and shallow sea and bombard land/sea. Both can use C130s and travel in subs but the SEAL can actually swim out to a sub and disembark from a sub into shallow sea.

I like your thoughts on the Guerilla unit and will rethink how to create a cheap stealth harassing pillaging unit with low support costs. I'm not big on government-type dependent units but in this case it might be a good idea.

[WesW]

Diodorus made his post as I was formulating mine, and I am happy to see how similar our views are.

I am not certain what Neolithic means, but I see that using Stone as the name of the first age is inappropriate. How about Biblical? I kept thinking of stories from the Bible when I was putting together the unit list for that age.
If we go with that, we could have Pharoah's Chariots as that age's mounted unit, with values as Diodorus described. I don't know if there is a good sprite available offhand, though.

I agree that Legions were adept at both offense and defense, but I had trouble when trying to represent this when I was putting together the Med mod. Either you end up with a very expensive unit, prompting you to wait until something more economical came along, or you sacrifice some of the offensive or defensive ability.

I am not an expert on ancient warfare, and am unfamiliar with the term Peltast. Would you elaborate upon them? They sound about like the Legion, who also used javelins.

I would like to see Longbowmen in the game, but their age coincided with the Catapault's. I know that Longbowmen were used in the field, and Catapaults in siege warfare, but the game makes no such descernment.
I would also like to see Crossbowmen in the game, but am unable to figure out how to place them. Would someone give a brief overview of their historic use?

I would also like to know more about the use of cavalry in the Renaissance and Napoleonic eras. From what I read at the Encyclopedia Brittanica site, mounted units were little more than scouts and support troops during this time. Is that correct?

My Napoleonic era seems to be exactly what Diodorus said was needed between the Ren. and Modern ages. The sprites actually look more like the British army during the Zulu wars, but they are close enough.

My choices for the Modern and Genetic ages give you units with distinct appearances, rather than the variations on a theme that you currently get.

Ctp1's War Walker could be used for the Genetic age anti-air unit, though I am not sure what to do with the Leviathan.

[Frugal_Gourmet]

If anyone lacks artistics skill and needs any great already created graphics that can fit nicely into CTP2, check out the graphics from the Age of Empires(tm) series.

If you own a copy you can extract graphics for:

Axemen, Skirmisers, Pikeman, Halberdiers, Centurions, Legionnaires, Elephants, Chariots, Chariot Archers, Knights, Paladins, Camels, Tarkans, Longbowmen, Battering Rams, Mangudai, Teutons, Two-handed Swordsmen, Crossbowmen, Hand Cannoneers, Janissaries, etc.

They plug in quite nicely. Just cut and paste.

[Locutus]

All,
I definately agree with Markos and Diodorus Sicilus that an early diplomat is needed (and IMHO the Noble/Herald would do just fine). Yesterday I started a game of CtPII and I tried to use diplomacy a lot more than I had until now. What struck me most was that without an embassy you can't achieve very much in CtPII, diplomaticly speaking, and you can't form embassies until you build the Diplomat. But the Diplomat only comes available in the Renaissance Age, much later than in CtPI or the MedMod (in CtPI it requires 4 techs in total to build the Diplomat, in the MedMod 6 and in CtPII 10), so basicly in CtPII it's impossible to form an alliance or military pact or whatever before 1500 AD or so (presuming the timeline is more or less accurate).

When it comes to the units/tech tree, I think we should take MedMod 4 as standard and improve on that, simply ignoring CtPII (though we should take advantage of all the new sprites and graphics whenever possible). So, of course, the Industrial Age as it was in the MedMod (and as Diodorus Sicilus describes) as well as the Medieval Age should be part of a CtPII mod as well.
The reason why I choose the Morgoth's Heavy Cavalry and Javelin Cavalry above the Chariot is the lack of a decent Chariot sprite but I agree that a Chariot would be a better choice in that position.
One other suggestion that wasn't mentioned yet is the Elephant warrior. It was an important unit in the Ancient Age (Ancient India, Hannibal) and there's a sprite of it in the Alexander the Great Scenario. Maybe as a 'special' unit in the Ancient Age?
I support Wes's decision to make the Legion an offensive unit and the Hoplite a defensive one, it may not be very historically accurate but it's better for the sake of gameplay, which is just as important. (So IMHO the Peltast isn't really needed, though it would no doubt be a good unit for a scenario).

As far as the Siege Engine/Longbowman problem goes, I think SLIC might hold the solution to this. In the pre-release versions of the game I've seen there were three 'mod' functions that seemed to be able to change unit stats (offense, defence and ranged values to be precise). I didn't get them to work yet but I didn't try very hard either. With a bit of luck these function do what I think they do and they would allow me to write some SLIC code that makes the Catapult much more powerful against cities than 'in the field'. In that case we could have both the Catapult and the Longbowman. A similar thing could happen in the Medieval age, have the Crossbowman as a 'normal' ranged unit and some kind of siege weapon as a city-buster, using SLIC to make the difference.

As far as Age names go, I wanted to use Stone Age but I couldn't find any unit as Attacker that didn't have any metal of some kind on him, so I had to go with Swordman (hell, even the Warrior of CtPII seems to carry a sword) and rename the age Bronze Age. I think Neolithic Age could be a nice suggestion as well (I'm not an expert but neolithic is sort of an 'advanced' stone age in which some cultures already used copper and such). Biblical Age is IMHO not such a good idea, it could be intimidating for non-Christians (and I can know 'cause I'm an atheist myself and even a bit anti-Christian). All in all Neolithical or Bronze Age would seem the best names to me so far.

I'm not much of an expert as far as Renaissance/Industrial Age units go so I'll leave that up to the experts. The SEALS and such in the Modern/Genetic Age aren't really necessary IMHO, the MedMod is good enough as it is in this respect (though it would be very cool to implement in a scenario). I would however have a good look at the MedMod's future age: maybe it is necessary to make a small post-Diamond Age and put the most advanced units in there? The Dreadnaught, Leviathan, Plasma Destroyer, Swarm, Alpha Transporter and possible some others should IMHO be placed at a higher 'level' then the Kraken, Hover Tank, Hover Infantry, (Stratosphere Fighter?, Orbital Bomber?,) etc. I wouldn't make too much changes in the current setup of the Genetic age in the MedMod, it represents the technology of today and the near future, and a Hover Infantry or whatever doesn't belong in there IMHO.

Frugal_Gourmet,
Yes, you are right. In fact, for the MedMod we already have 2 units from AoE (Siege Engine and Horse Archer - don't remember the AoE names) but there are a few problems. First and foremost, for AoK that doesn't seem to work, the pictures get all screwed up. If you know how to do it for AoK, I would very much appriciate it if you explained how you did this, I worked on it for a long time without success.
A second problem is that the units of AoE/K are slightly smaller than those of CtP(II) and that looks a bit silly.
A third problem is that it's an awful lot of work to convert those AoE/K graphics to CtP format, esp. if you want animations and shadows done properly (and for an important mod as the MedMod that should IMHO be the case), IIRC it involves over 60 files a unit and removing shadows and putting them in a seperate file for each of those 60+ files is a tedious job and requires some expertise in working with graphics (I tried it several times but failed each time).
But I do think that it would be great if someone would convert at least the most important of these AoE/K units to CtP format and possibly even enhance them a little, esp. for a Chariot and Crossbowman that would be great.

[Frugal_Gourmet]

Well, so far I have only gotten the AOE Chariot and Legion converted to CTP2 sprite format, and -- though I don't have all the right facings and such -- they are still some of the best looking Chariot/Legion graphics I've seen for CTP yet..

The shadow is a fixed part of the image instead of stuck in the correct shadow file as appropriate, and it's still a basic icon, but I like it.

Unfortunately, although strangely enough the .spr files work just fine, I'm having trouble with the .tga files. They look like gibberish in the game. I'm not sure why this is, but I chalk it up to lack of experience on my part. I'll keep plugging away and will let you guys know how much progress I make...

[Savant]

Howdy Wes and all. everyone is wound up for CTP round 2 I see!

Anyway, here is a different idea about how to include different units although I don't know if it will work.

Can a wonder be used to trigger a specific unit? That is suppose like in Wes' mod, someone discovers the "cohort" wonder, could this be tied to the production of a specific unit that other civilizations don't have, like say the legion? I think a big improvement in game play and interest would be if civilizations could develop their own unique units - kind of like in Age of Empires, that are somehwo tied to the achievement of a wonder or tied to their culture.

I recall Civ II being modified a lot in this way. The scenarios were wonderful becuse they allowed the development if civilization-specific sprites and features.

Just an idea but I think it would go a long way toward making the game more authentic.

------------------

'Blood will run'

[23 Skidoo]

Just got it yesterday. Haven't played the Alexander scenario yet, but I think Generals would be a great standard addition. Generals throughout the Ages could have different attributes in movement, command radius, and command effect.

Also, how about a Statesman unit? This would be the same as a General, but for cities & act as a high powered Diplomat.

I also think a "You" unit would be cool, i.e., a dynast. This unit could have the effect of a mobile Capitol, General, Diplomat/Statesman, plus other benes. There'd be a choice at government or Age change-overs to "roll" for a different mix of attributes. If "you" get killed, roll again for your dynastic progeny with the possibility of no new dynast. Result in Anarchy until you roll a new one.

And lets have the cow back! Or perhaps a chicken!

[WesW]

I edited my post to change the names of the ages to ones which I think are appropriate.

I would also like to have wonders which allow the building of special units. There are a number of units which Morgoth made for Ctp1 which would be great for this, and if AOK sprites could be converted, it would open up many more units.

From what I understand, it is possible to do this with slic, but I want to set up generic units first, and add in the slic stuff later, once we have made the standard game play-balanced and stable.

As far as advances, I want to use the new ones in Ctp2, unless people think they are clearly inferior to those already in the Med mod. Then I want to remove all those from the Med mod that aren't absolutely needed.
If the AIs know how to switch out of building wonders when someone else beats them to one, and don't waste that city's production from that point in the game forward, then there will be no need for all of the new wonders that I added in the Med mod 4. This will allow the removal of a number of advances as well.

As far as the ages, the Napoleonic era would cover approximately the 19th century, while the Modern age would cover the late 20th and 21st centuries. The Genetic age would cover the last two centuries of the game.
This would largely skip the two world wars, which were themselves transition eras. If it turns out that another age is needed, then this would be the era to do it in.

Btw, I haven't heard any views on re-working the City Walls values and inserting the Stockade. Does this mean everyone thinks it's a good idea, or have we gotten so used to it that it feels odd not having this setup?
Btw, what about changing the name from Stockade to Palisades, or something else?