Hex's new potential project - WOTR

[Ãskallin]

Can i playtest it

I hardly now any SLIC but i am a ultra-gigantic-super-extra fan of Tolkien i have read all of his books 4-5 times

and you could get up to 5 cities in Rohan:
Edoras, Dunharrow, Eastfold, Westfold, Helms Deep

and 7 cities in Gondor:
Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Linthir, Tarnost, Pelargir, Edhellond, Calembel.

at least 7 cities in Mordor:
Barad Dúr, Durthang, Minas Morgul, Morannon, Tower of Cirith Ungol, Morgai
But other Cities of the Darkness are:
Gundebad, Dol Guldur and Isengard

only one city in Near Harad:
Umbar the City of the Corsairs

[hexagonian]

Well, here's my tentative list of units - these have been entered into the database. There are notations as to what sprites I'm planning on using. I havent worked up the stats yet either.

HUMAN?ELF?DWARF

DEFENSE
Spearmen (Janissary)
Axemen (Man-At-Arms)
Pikemen (CTP2 Pikeman)
Citadel Guard (CTP2 Hypaspist)

OFFENSE
Warriors (CTP2 Hoplite)
Macemen (CTP2 Pezheteroi)
Swordsmen (CTP2 Praetorian)
Dunedain (CTP2 Legion)

FLANKER
Horsemen (Javelin Cavalry)
Riders (Horseman)
Heavy Cavalry (CTP1 Knight)
Knights (CTP2 Knight)

RANGE
Archers (CTP1 Archer)
Composite Archers (CTP2 Archer)
Crossbowmen (Crossbow)
Mounted Archers (CTP2 Mounted Archer)

BOMBARD
Catapults (Blue Catapult)
Siegeworks (CTP2 Catapult)

NAVAL
Dromunds (CTP1 Red Trireme)
Longboats (CTP2 Longship)
Transports (t5) (CTP1 Longship)

SPECIAL
Gandalf (CTP2 Cleric)
Legolas (CTP2 Mounted Archer)
Aragorn (CTP2 Knight)
Gimli (Man-at-Arms)
Boromir (CTP2 Praetorians)
Frodo (CTP2 Hoplite)
Sam (CTP1 Hoplite)
Merry (CTP1 Hoplite)
Pippen (CTP1 Hoplite)
Theoden (CTP2 Knight)
Eowyn (CTP2 Mounted Archer)
Eomir (CTP2 Mounted Archer)
Galandrial (CTP2 Empath Diplomat)
Elrond (CTP2 Diplomat)
Denethor (CTP2 Diplomat)
Faramir (CTP2 Praetorians)
Treebeard (CTP1 Cleric)


MORDOR

DEFENSE
Spearmen (Janissary)
Axemen (Man-At-Arms)
Pikemen (CTP2 Pikeman)
????? (CTP2 Hypaspist)

OFFENSE
Goblins (CTP1 Warrior)
Orcs (CTP2 Zulu Warrior)
Uruks (CTP2 Samauri)
Trolls (CTP2 Slavemaster)

FLANKER
Horsemen (Javelin Cavalry)
Riders (Horseman)
Heavy Cavalry (CTP1 Knight)
Oliphaunts (CTP2 Elephant)

RANGE
Orc Archers (CTP1 Archer)
Uruk-hai Archers (CTP2 Archer)
Morgul Archers (Crossbow)
Uruk Archers (CTP2 Mounted Archer)

BOMBARD
Morder Catapults (Blue Catapult)
Mordor Siegeworks (CTP2 Catapult)

NAVAL
Dromunds (CTP1 Red Trireme)
Longboats (CTP2 Longship)
Transports (t5) (CTP1 Longship)

SPECIAL
Black Rider I (Cataphract)
Black Rider II (Cataphract)
Nazgul I (CTP2 Stealth Bomber)
Nazgul II (CTP2 Stealth Bomber)
Watcher (CTP2 Moray Striker)
Balrog (CTP1 Crawler)
Shelob (CTP2 War Walker)
Sauron (CTP2 Cyber Ninja)
Mouth of Sauron (CTP2 Slavemaster)
Saruman (CTP2 Cleric)
Grima (CTP1 Slaver)
Gollum (CTP1 Eco-Terrorist)


As far as the sprites go, the only ones I would like to improve upon are
Nazguls
Balrog
Gollum
Orc Archers - somehow, the Robin Hood look does not fit too well, and there isn't enough Archer units to go around. I may use the CTP1 Muskie sprite

As for the names, I would like to have a name for the top Mordor defensive unit, and a different name for the human warrior unit.

If somebody can make a strong argument for any additional leader units, I will consider it, though I am happy with the list as it stands.

I thought about Eagles/Wargs too but unless I can get workable sprites, those will not be in.

No Tom Bombadil either...

[J Bytheway]

I think you need someething to respresent the ram (I can't remember its name) used on Minas Tirith.

Uruk archers and Uruk Hai archers are surely the same thing.

Any ents apart from Treebeard?

I can see why you're short of defense units for Mordor, but they weren't big on defense so perhaps you could get away with 5 offense/3 defense if anyone can think of another offense unit (perhaps two varieties of troll - hill and cave).

I'm glad there's no Tom Bombadil. I'm not sure I would have included Shelob or Gollum either since they weren't really fighting for one side or the other...

[Turambar]

Saramun being the creator of the Uruk-hai (which he wasn't in the books)).

He did create them in the books.

Why do you have Black riders and Nazgul listed seperately?

Are you going to have riders from Rohan for example better than riders from Gondor in attack etc?

The big Mordor Trolls were called Olog-Hai BTW.

I think you need someething to respresent the ram (I can't remember its name) used on Minas Tirith.

Grond.

And Goblins are the same thing as Orcs in Middle Earth Tolkien just used that name in the Hobbit as it was aimed at a younger audience. There is a variety of Orc however that you could use instead called Snaga (I think) that were smaller and used for tracking/scouting (if I remember correctly).

The population of cities would need to be decided. Rivendell for example probably had only 300 people living there where as Gondor in total had about 1 million people (probably a bit less).

Saruman and the Witch King should be on the list somewhere.

are there actually 10 cities of Rohan (or Rhun, Harad, Isengard, Dwarves, Elves) that can be named?

Not cities as such but there are plenty of settled regions that could be used as city names.

I'd love to help with the GL entries BTW.

I hope most of the post made sense .

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Turambar
He did create them in the books.

No, he created orc-human crossbreeds. The Uruk-hai were already around and were purebred orcs. That is what it says here:

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/movie.html

(Penultimate bullet point in 'Major changes from the book to the film')
I trust that source, and with a little more research I found this quote from the same website:

In Appendix A (iv) of The Lord of the Rings, in the section recounting the history of the Stewards, we find an account of the first appearance of the uruks. 'In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.' This passage seems to imply that the uruks actually appeared shortly before Gondor's great defeat of III 2475.

The creatures that Saruman created should also be represented in the scenario, perhaps.

And Goblins are the same thing as Orcs in Middle Earth Tolkien just used that name in the Hobbit as it was aimed at a younger audience. There is a variety of Orc however that you could use instead called Snaga (I think) that were smaller and used for tracking/scouting (if I remember correctly).

From the same site again (it's a great Tolkien reference) Snaga is:

A contemptuous term for the lesser Orcs of Mordor and Isengard, used especially among the larger and stronger Uruk-hai. It comes from a word in the Black Speech meaning 'slave'.

There is some marginal suggestion that goblins referred to the smaller kinds of orc, from the foreword of the hobbit:

[The word 'Orc'] occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds).

But I would rather that reference to goblins be avoided if possible because such arguments are tenuous at best. Better just to have orcs and uruks.

[hexagonian]

Thanks for the imput so far. Because this is most likely to be a two-civ game, the basic units will have to be somewhat generic in nature, as all cities will be producing the units. Somehow, I do not think there is a way to have city-specific units in this type of setup. I do think that the AI will be more focused if it is limited to a single civ, and based on the fact that there are not a whole lot of cities to work with in the first place, limiting the human to a single civ might be for the best. Too bad CTP2 does not have hotseat...

Anyhow, if I start off with this format, I can expand it later to include multiple civs.

-Snaga will be replacing Goblins
-Uruk-Hai will be changed to Uruks (more encompassing)

I actually have 4 classes of Black Riders/Nazguls. There will be the full Nine in the game, and they will be in at the start, although, the Witch King might be a wonder unit created by a branch that only Mordor can research.

2 lower class Black Riders
2 upper class Black Riders
4 Nazgul
1 Witch King

I'm thinking of doing the same for Gandalf the White, but there may be 2 Gandalfs in the game then...

Grond is something that may make its way in, but since it is siege-specific, having it either on the front lines of a non-city battle or operating as a ranged unit might be out of character. Still, I'm leaning to include it.

The whole city size issue has already been worked out - I ran some tests tonight...

Turamber - I might take you up on the GL entries. Let me finish the basic Modded files that I need to do, and I'll send them to you to implement. It may be a few more weeks though, as there is a lot of stuff to do.

My main goal is to get all of the basic files set up with all of the additions, and then make sure its all stable. Tweaking numbers is the easy part.

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by hexagonian
Too bad CTP2 does not have hotseat...

I thought it did but the diplomacy didn't work - and that shouldn't be a problem in this scenario, should it?

[Turambar]

No, he created orc-human crossbreeds. The Uruk-hai were already around and were purebred orcs.

Doh!

Someone at my board is actually working a Tolkien encyclopedia so I'm sure he and some others there would help me out with the GL entries.

hex, have you played the LOTR scen for Civ2? In that they had it so that when Gandalf died he was automatically replaced by Gandalf the White. The Nazgul also had two lives.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by hexagonian
Somehow, I do not think there is a way to have city-specific units in this type of setup.

Why not? There have been numerous scenarios that did it already. Alexander, WWII, Frederick the Great, and I've helped several other people set up a similar thing. If you have cities, you can have city-specific units, it's really easy to do. And I think you *should* do it as well, get the advantages of both: playing with 2 civs gives better AI results, playing with more than 2 civs adds greatly to the atmosphere of fighting in an alliance. If the city and unit sprites of the Elves are different from those of the Humans and Dwarfs, that will greatly add to the atmosphere of the game.

Also, I think you may want to consider using some more fantasy sprites. You're using all regular-game sprites while there are some quite nice looking dragons, elves (use amazons! ), goblins, etc out there. IW's website has a bunch but I think I could even find more if I went through my archive. Such sprites would greatly add to the atmosphere as well, even if they are of a slightly lower standard than Activision's/Morgoth's sprites.

Too bad CTP2 does not have hotseat...

Actually, it does. What John said...

[Turambar]

I think multiple civs would be better and reflect what happened better. If you have one civ controlling Gondor, Elves and Dwarves then you could end up with Cirden sending a fleet of Elven ships packed with dwarves from the Ered Luin down to fight in Gondor.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Locutus
Why not? There have been numerous scenarios that did it already. Alexander, WWII, Frederick the Great, and I've helped several other people set up a similar thing. If you have cities, you can have city-specific units, it's really easy to do. And I think you *should* do it as well, get the advantages of both: playing with 2 civs gives better AI results, playing with more than 2 civs adds greatly to the atmosphere of fighting in an alliance. If the city and unit sprites of the Elves are different from those of the Humans and Dwarfs, that will greatly add to the atmosphere of the game.

Boy, I thought I would be able to knock this out in a few weeks...But it looks like this will become one of those projects that will evolve over time. (sort of like Cradle did!!!) The nice thing about this is once I get the pieces in place concerning the foundation files (units, advances, buildings and so forth) these additional things probably can be added in easily, or at least tried.

Still, having multiple civs will make it harder for a player to beat the game, because he will have less control over what the other allied civs are doing.

My one thought on all of this is that since this will be a scenario instead of a random map setup, players will have a feel for how to beat it after playing it, so I do want to limit public releases - and as such, I want to limit who I have testing the setup too.

Question
Will the SLIC file that enables allied situations conflict with the current Diplomod/Frenzy files, as those files have a tendency to foster war between all civs in the game (one of the main reasons whyI wanted to limit it to a 2 civ game)

And I will need someone to give me the relevant SLIC code for civ-specific units, but I will not need it for a few weeks, I'm guessing.

Originally posted by Locutus
Also, I think you may want to consider using some more fantasy sprites. You're using all regular-game sprites while there are some quite nice looking dragons, elves (use amazons! ), goblins, etc out there. IW's website has a bunch but I think I could even find more if I went through my archive. Such sprites would greatly add to the atmosphere as well, even if they are of a slightly lower standard than Activision's/Morgoth's sprites.

I will have to take a look at the units that are available, but to be honest, I am happy with 95% of the units that I do have now - from a purely graphics standpoint too. Some of the futuristic CTP1/CTP2 units actually look good in this setup (for instance, the CTP2 War Walker makes an excellent Shelob)

And the CTP2 Zulu/CTP1 Warrior/Samauri/CTP2 Slaver are very good for the orcs/trolls

[hexagonian]

Straight from the gl_str.txt file, here is the tech tree. It will have 2 separate trees - one for Mordor and one for the rest of Middle Earth...

ADVANCE_MORDOR_START "Mordor Setup"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_INTRO "The Shadow of the Past"

ADVANCE_MORDOR_OFFENSE_I "Orc Breeding Pits"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_OFFENSE_II "Uruk Breeding Pits"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_OFFENSE_III "Troll Breeding Pits"

ADVANCE_MORDOR_DEFENSE_I "Mordor Garrison Upgrade I"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_DEFENSE_II "Mordor Garrison Upgrade II"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_DEFENSE_III "Mordor Garrison Upgrade III"

ADVANCE_MORDOR_RANGE_I "Composite Bow Barracks"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_RANGE_II "Mordor Siegeworks"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_RANGE_III "Longbow Barracks"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_RANGE_IV "Mordor Elite Bowmen"

ADVANCE_MORDOR_MOUNT_I "Mordor Mounted Upgrade I"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_MOUNT_II "Mordor Mounted Upgrade II"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_MOUNT_III "Oliphaunt Stables"

ADVANCE_MORDOR_INFRA_I "Mordor Infrastructure Upgrade I"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_INFRA_II "Mordor Infrastructure Upgrade II"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_INFRA_III "Mordor Infrastructure Upgrade III"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_INFRA_IV "Mordor Infrastructure Upgrade IV"

ADVANCE_MORDOR_GOV_I "The Eye Takes Power"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_GOV_II "The Rule of the Eye"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_GOV_III "The Lordship of the Eye"

ADVANCE_MORDOR_WONDER_I "Secrets of the Palantir"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_WONDER_II "The Forges of Barad-Dur"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_WONDER_III "The Breeding of the Uruk-hai"
ADVANCE_MORDOR_WONDER_IV "The Creation of Grond"

ADVANCE_MORDOR_END "The War to Rule Middle Earth"

ADVANCE_HUMAN_START "Setup"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_INTRO "Rumors from the East"

ADVANCE_HUMAN_OFFENSE_I "Military Training I"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_OFFENSE_II "Military Training II"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_OFFENSE_III "Military Training II"

ADVANCE_HUMAN_DEFENSE_I "Guard Training I"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_DEFENSE_II "Guard Training II"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_DEFENSE_III "Guard Training III"

ADVANCE_HUMAN_RANGE_I "Composite Bow Training"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_RANGE_II "Siegeworks"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_RANGE_III "Longbow Training"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_RANGE_IV "Mounted Archery Training"

ADVANCE_HUMAN_MOUNT_I "Equestrian Stables"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_MOUNT_II "The Code of Chivalry"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_MOUNT_III "Knighthood"

ADVANCE_HUMAN_INFRA_I "Infrastructure Upgrade I"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_INFRA_II "Infrastructure Upgrade II"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_INFRA_III "Infrastructure Upgrade III"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_INFRA_IV "Infrastructure Upgrade IV"

ADVANCE_HUMAN_GOV_I "Stewardship"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_GOV_II "Great Council"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_GOV_III "The Return of the King"

ADVANCE_HUMAN_WONDER_I "The Mirror of Galandriel"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_WONDER_II "The Return of Gandalf"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_WONDER_III "The Discovery of the Palantir"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_WONDER_IV "The Muster of Rohan"

ADVANCE_HUMAN_END "The War to Destroy Sauron"

[Immortal Wombat]

I thought about Eagles/Wargs too but unless I can get workable sprites, those will not be in.

*cough* You made the targas for me... the warg is not good, because it doesn't animate, but an eagle needs no flapping wings does it?

Boy, I thought I would be able to knock this out in a few weeks...

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by hexagoniaI'm asking Ben as my first choice as tester as I know he is a Tolkien fan, and he can offer the help I will need in certain areas.

Thankyou. I'm honoured

I'm focusing on having the human player play Gondor

I guess from a warfare standpoint that would be better, but the potential for a Samurai-style RPG-esque scenario is there if you don't mind some heavy SLICing.

Nazgul I (CTP2 Stealth Bomber)
Nazgul II (CTP2 Stealth Bomber)

What about Jerome Lux' 'demon' sprite?

Here is the list of sprites I had drawn up.

	Attack	Defense	Ranged	Horse
Gondor	CtP Legion	CtP2 Pikeman	Robin Hood Archer	CtP Knight
Rohan	CtP2 Hoplite	CtP Pikeman	CtP2 Archer	CtP2 Mounted Archer
Dale	CtP2 Warrior	Man At Arms	Robin Hood Archer	CtP Knight
Dunland	--	Tom D Pikeman	--	CtP Mounted Archer
Harad/Easterlings	EB Warrior & CtP Warrior		EB hypastist	Murmakil
Rhun	3 Samurai Units		CtP Archer
Mordor	TD Swordsman	CtP Phalanx	Jerome Lux Archer	Black Rider/Bandit/Cataphract & TD Chariot (wainriders)
Boromir/Faramir	JL Swordsman
Wizards	CtP2 Cleric
Aragorn	Alexander

There is a (basic) troll sprite available, and the werewolf could be a stand-in goblin. Jerome Lux made a dwarf sprite, and the should be a "knight" sprite which might do for hobbits, its quite small. I think elves should be the bowmen in green. I'm dubious about that balrog sprite, but other than doing it myslef (shudder), all I can suggest is waiting until someone makes one for Civ3.

Did you need a battering ram sprite? Or a ring sprite?

Ooh, and check out the cities.

edit: Why the big gap?

[hexagonian]

Well, here is the status report so far

Files done
- govern.txt
- tileimpr.txt
- Advances.txt *(except for cost - dependent on setup issues)
- Wonders.txt
- terrain.txt

Still to do
- all the AI files, but this will not take long
- The raw data for the units is in - I have a working chart of unit specs for all of the non-leader units, so that data needs to be entered. I still have to work out the leader specs.
- Many graphic tgas

Now for some requests in order of importance...

1. I need a SLIC file that will disband an existing unit and replace it with another unit when a Wonder is completed. Thus Gandalf the Grey would become Gandalf the White, Black Riders become Nazgul and so forth.

2. A SLIC file that would establish alliances between civs that would carry throughout the game.

3. A SLIC file that limits construction of certain units to certain civs or cities.

4. Some SLIC message files that would be triggered when a unit reaches a city for the first time (not necessary, but more for atmosphere)

5. If anyone could provide me with a complete city list, along with civs, that would be appreciated, and it would save me some time (even better if the data is entered into the civ.str.txt file - having Gondor first after the Barbarians. BTW, Barbarians will now be labeled Morgul Raiders...)

6. Also a good scan on Middle Earth with city placement - the copy I have (100 year edition of LOTR) is very poor quality.