The Medieval Pack II Beta: The Gathering (Part 2)

[WesW]

UPDATE ALERT: New text update posted.

We finally got all the triggers working correctly. Militia units are back in the mod, though in a simpler version than what we had before. The Elite units now work too. Be sure and read the Main readme about these two unconventional unit types.
The terraforming errors P-man laid out have been fixed as well.

We should now be able to conduct the final round of play-testing to see how the Elite units affect the game, and to check science progress in the second half of the game.
I am leaving tomorrow for a short trip, hopefully only a couple of days, so if you don't hear from me for a little while, that is the reason.

My current game has been quite pleasing. I conducted a long war against a strong civ to drive them from my continent, and it took all of my 20% PW allocation just to repair my troops while I waged my successful campaign. The refugee and building triggers also had a big effect on the quality of the cities I conquered. It took dozens of turns for them to return to their pre-war condition, and I had to spent all my gold to rush-buy happiness improvements to keep them out of riots or even revolts.
I think I am going to continue this game, so that I can make a judgement on the science flow of the later game. Thus I will need you guys to report on the Elite units. Any other observations are welcome too.

[janilxx]

Should helps be ok already?

At least few wonders' helps were not ok in build manager window(the appian way, stonehenge or something like that did not work).

Jani
[This message has been edited by janilxx (edited May 14, 2001).]

[PinkFriend]

Specialy for WesW and others
----------------------------

1. Civs must be to improve their relations every turn if there is no war between them (and with Human too!!!). We may give them small bonus for the same goverment. Why did you turn off this feature?

2. BAG in DipMod: probably it must be used "MaxPlayer" preference, not "NumPlayer"!!! New players could appear by revolt!!!

3. It's good idea to change Player1's relation to Player2 according to Player3's relation to Player2 and Player1's relation to Player2. Suppose Player1 has positive relation with Player3 and Player3 relation to Player2 falls. Then Player1 relation to Player2 must fall too. On the other side if Player1 would have negative relation with Player3 then Player1 relation to Player2 must rise. I can write this SLIC but I don't know how can I get players's relation.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'v created new Castle cities pictures. They are much more good than earlier ones. You may use them. But I didn't make shadows, cause I don't know how do them. Get it from:

chat.ru/citystyles.jpg

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you have other SLIC command documentation than Apolytion site has?

[PinkFriend]

I made a mistake. The adress of new Castle city styles images is:
http://r-island.chat.ru/citystyles1age.jpg
http://r-island.chat.ru/citystyles2age.jpg

[janilxx]

quote: Originally posted by PinkFriend on 05-14-2001 04:17 AM 1. Civs must be to improve their relations every turn if there is no war between them (and with Human too!!!). We may give them small bonus for the same goverment. Why did you turn off this feature?

I disagree. I do not like my neighbour or friend more every day

quote: 2. BAG in DipMod: probably it must be used "MaxPlayer" preference, not "NumPlayer"!!! New players could appear by revolt!!!

How is this new player thing working in practice?

Example: If three of my cities that are close will revolt I would like to get new player(nation) with 3 cities(and that nation's should have continous borders). I would not get 3 different nations. But if cities are far from others I would maybe like to get 2 or 3 different nations.

And what if fourth of my city will revolt lets say 200 years later. If it is next to the nation that was established 200 years ago would it join that nation?!? Or would it do it's own nation?

And how about barbarians... If they can get for example 2 of your cities that are close should them form a new nation so that I could establish embassy with them???

I think that this "new player by revolt/barbarians" issue is so big that it should be studied very carefully after the first final version of MedPack. This issue would need a lot of people discussing about it here in forums or with mails/chats. And if the result is that this should be coded we should get very good spesifications how this should work. And then we could ask someone to code that. That feature should not be added if it will not be working properly and fine. And finally we have to have so good specifications that we could get Wes and others to love this idea and then we could maybe get it to the MedPack version 2

quote: 3. It's good idea to change Player1's relation to Player2 according to Player3's relation to Player2 and Player1's relation to Player2. Suppose Player1 has positive relation with Player3 and Player3 relation to Player2 falls. Then Player1 relation to Player2 must fall too. On the other side if Player1 would have negative relation with Player3 then Player1 relation to Player2 must rise. I can write this SLIC but I don't know how can I get players's relation.

Real life example.
So if lets say Chile and Argentina would have good relations. And Argentina and Mongols are having good relations as does Chile and Mongols have too.

Then Mongolian diplomatic would say bad things about Chile and Chile would get angry and closes its mongolian embassy. Chile would hate Mongols after this.

But why should Argentina hate Mongols too? They should not! Only in rare situations other countries' relations should be affected as you said(like NATO countries in militaristic issues etc).

Jani

[Dale]

PinkFriend:
Point 1: I disabled the blatant cheat that the AI was receiving. In the diplomacy.txt settings are two lines that refer to turns of peace and turns of treaty. These two enable two nations to get friendlier during these situations IF (and only if) no other REGARD_PENALTY flag is triggered.

Point 2: As far as I know of CTP2, Preference(NumPlayers) is increased/decreased as the game continues. The script uses this global.

Point 3: Once again, in diplomacy.txt there are some REGARD_PENALTY flags that refer to when you have treaties with other nations. They include "the enemy of my friend is also my enemy" flags. They aren't as vicious as "my enemy" flags, but they have an effect.

------------------
Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

[PinkFriend]

quote: Originally posted by Dale on 05-14-2001 06:26 AM PinkFriend: Point 1: I disabled the blatant cheat that the AI was receiving. In the diplomacy.txt settings are two lines that refer to turns of peace and turns of treaty. These two enable two nations to get friendlier during these situations IF (and only if) no other REGARD_PENALTY flag is triggered. Point 2: As far as I know of CTP2, Preference(NumPlayers) is increased/decreased as the game continues. The script uses this global. Point 3: Once again, in diplomacy.txt there are some REGARD_PENALTY flags that refer to when you have treaties with other nations. They include "the enemy of my friend is also my enemy" flags. They aren't as vicious as "my enemy" flags, but they have an effect.

To point 1: Can you do wars that have end? I mean wars between AI's. Can you do AI's treaties? I didn't see any one.

To point 2: But when you initialize array (it does only one time in the begining of game) you set array with this number of player that takes place when the game's started.

To point 3: I agree. But I didn't see this effect in the game.

[PinkFriend]

quote: Originally posted by janilxx on 05-14-2001 05:53 AM I disagree. I do not like my neighbour or friend more every day ............ Real life example. So if lets say Chile and Argentina would have good relations. And Argentina and Mongols are having good relations as does Chile and Mongols have too. Then Mongolian diplomatic would say bad things about Chile and Chile would get angry and closes its mongolian embassy. Chile would hate Mongols after this. But why should Argentina hate Mongols too? They should not! Only in rare situations other countries' relations should be affected as you said(like NATO countries in militaristic issues etc).

You speak about real life and I speak about game CTP2. Now we see that after 200 turns all civ's hate each other and even war with each other. It is less realistic sutuation than "love rising to neighbours". After all it makes game not playable. Neverending wars are not interesting thing. And no AI's treaties too.

[janilxx]

quote: Originally posted by PinkFriend on 05-14-2001 08:01 AM after 200 turns all civ's hate each other and even war with each other.

Dale did something to this and after that all AIs loved all AIs
But now Dale have changed the settings and one main testing area for me is to check out that Dale did the good corrections(if I just remember to check this )

Now one AI should hate some AIs and love some AIs and have neutral relations to some AIs.

And of course relations should change sometimes because of many reasons!!!

I hope many testers would check AI to AI relationships sometimes and testers would post their findings here. This all-hate/love-all situation was IMO one of the biggest stupidity in CTP2 and if that can be corrected well the game will be a lot better!!!

Jani


[This message has been edited by janilxx (edited May 14, 2001).]

[janilxx]

double
[This message has been edited by janilxx (edited May 14, 2001).]

[GreatDane]

I have started a new game with the latest update and so far all the AI's hate each other. They have started many wars and are never making peace it seems. They all love me for some reason. Maybe because I built the staue of liberty wonder and I am first in the rankings.

Would it be possible to trigger that when the human player is in the lead all AI's would become angry at him? Is this code already in the game?
This would make the game more interesting in the later stages if I am far ahead of the AI.

I would rather have the AI hate other AI's instead of them loving eachother. It would be nice to have a mixture, but I am afraid that is not possible with the current gamecode.

Henrik

[Martin Gühmann]

quote: I'v created new Castle cities pictures. They are much more good than earlier ones. You may use them. But I didn't make shadows, cause I don't know how do them. Get it from: http://r-island.chat.ru/citystyles1age.jpg http://r-island.chat.ru/citystyles2age.jpg

an alternative castle style that would also enrich CityMod2 (I think there are to much castle civs) but there is something missing: The shadows as you said, the industrial age and I already made a new modern style. I could finish the work PinkFriend. By the way I think Green roofs would be much er than this metallic blue-gray - A green patina of a bronze roof. Great work PinkFriend.

-Martin
[This message has been edited by Martin Gühmann (edited May 14, 2001).]

[Dale]

Pinkfriend:
If you can ge the AI to make treaties with other AIs, you're a better man than I am. I've been trying for something like 5 months now. I've got the AI proposing treaties to Humans though. Also, I tested using MaxPlayers instead of NumPlayers last night for 5 minutes. It crashes because it tries to read players that aren't there. EG. NumPlayers = 8, MaxPlayers = 16. From player 9 - 16 it's NULL, you get crashes. On my setup anyways.

As for AI-AI relations, I've setup three seperate diplomatic states in diplomacy.txt: AI_AI_NORMAL, AI_AI_SUCKUP and AI_AI_WARMONGER. These states are based on the personality of the AI. If you get militant personalities it sets as WARMONGER state. If you get scientific/economic personalities you get SUCKUP state. All others are NORMAL. Bloodlust sets all AIs to militant personalities, so you'll never see the other two diplomatic states. The harder the level you play at, the more likely you get militant personalities. This may be the effect you're noticing. I played a test game on the middle difficulty for 500 turns, and found that there was a mix of AI relationships. *shrugs* But if you want to change it, speak to the file diplomacy.txt. It's easy to understand. As for me, I'll keep an eye on these boards to see how it's going, but I just quite simply don't have any time to even bootup my PC, let alone play games or SLIC-script.

------------------
Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

[David Murray]

sorry
[This message has been edited by David Murray (edited May 14, 2001).]

[Rhuarc]

ok, a couple of questions, do I have to start completely new games in order to use the new text update? Or can I install it then reload the files using modswapper, then play my saved games? Also, the videos for some of the wonders are messed up, the stonehenge one for example is one of the much later videos. I don't know if you meant it to be this way or if it was a glitch. Any way, thanks a lot for all your help everyone!