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**OmniGod** · February 25, 2001, 22:11

Are you noticing any irregularities with the AI at that size. In earlier testing the AI wouldn't build roads and that was a real problem. The physical size as I've heard is something like 32000x32000 or something like that.... if the 200x400 works and there are no AI problems then great but that's just what the earlier findings were on two computers.

**Grandpa Troll** · February 25, 2001, 22:35

quote:

Originally posted by OmniGod on 02-25-2001 09:11 PM
Are you noticing any irregularities with the AI at that size. In earlier testing the AI wouldn't build roads and that was a real problem. The physical size as I've heard is something like 32000x32000 or something like that.... if the 200x400 works and there are no AI problems then great but that's just what the earlier findings were on two computers.

Omni my friend...I have seen roads..I am in Renaissance at the curent time..and they be attacking...FREQUENTLLY!!

BTW..did I read correctly..a 32000 X 32000????

So far so Good with 200 X 400 though..I shall keep you posted on this topic or another if it expires

Thanks

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

**Flash** · February 27, 2001, 03:26

Troll,
You heard correctly. Occording to the lead designer of CTP1, in which i asked the question, he said the design team said the game should handle a max size of 32,768x 32768

here is the response

"Dear Brian,

Thank you for taking the time to play our game. I hope you enjoy playing it
as much as we enjoyed making it.

The length of each turn and the size of the map can be edited in CTP data
files.

To change the turn length, open the DiffDB.txt file stored in
ctp_data\default\gamedata. The length of each turn changes for each
difficulty level, so next you need to decide which difficulty level you wish
to change. Now, search for the string: "TIME_SCALE". Notice that time is
divided into different PERIODs. In each PERIOD, time moves at a different
rate. Setting YEARS_PER_TURN to 1 gives you one (1) year per turn.

For map size, find the CONST.TXT file in the same directory. Search this
file for "MAP_SIZE_". You should see one entry:
MAP_SIZE_GIGANTIC 70 140 2
Feel free to edit first two numbers, but leave the "2" alone. Our
programmers assure use that we can support 256x256 in multiplayer and maybe
32768x32768, but we're not certain on that one. Also, your best bet is to
stick to a 1:2 ratio -- I can't guarantee the results if you try other
aspect ratios.

Good luck and enjoy the game.

Yours,

William Westwater
Lead Designer, Civilization: Call To Power"

Hope this helps
Flash

**Grandpa Troll** · February 27, 2001, 08:01

SAAAA---WWEEEEEETTTT!!!!

(Kicking floor under computer!!)

I have to head to work now but..WHEN I GET HOME!!!

I am gonna make a REAL, Gigantic,Huge, Obese, Mammoth Map fer my own personal enjoyment!!

Thanks much for the reply folks!!

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

**Grandpa Troll** · February 27, 2001, 20:45

Well..Good news and Bad news..here goes...

First:

I tried above mentioned dimensions..32000 X 32000..Crashed to desktop..(That was in fact from CTP:1..NOT CTP:2..BTW)

I went all the way down to 250 X 500..with 8 Civ's which keps in line with the 1:2 ratio..described above...I had incrementally gone down..and got where it would not crash to deskyop..when I kept the dimensions under 1000 on each side..but it was SO SLOW!!..worse than an MP Game..and I tried 8 Civs's..and then 5 Civ's..but would take upward of 1-2 Min's.. per turn!!

Ok..a 250 X 500 with 8 civ's works ok..with 4-5 sec delay..I went up to 4 cities..built..through ruin search..or building in quere...and am going to try a game with this..

F.Y.I...if you go to Launch Editor and in Empire screen...where you can put in parameters to find a location on map..you can't exceed a three digit #...(i.e...say you wanted to find x=455 and y=980..the map will then proceed to that location when you press LOCATE..beside that area..but you couldn't say put in a location of say 1105 by 1500..)

I also followed the tweaking of turns...to make it where it would only make a year per turn go by..to make a longer game!!

Ok..I will keep you posted....Hope this works..as I wanted a Longer Naval Game..and am HEADED Toward making
it where I can also have a HUGE World..where both Naval and Land Battles take place..so I will keep you posted and as previously stated in Earlier posts..I AM NOT NOR DO I CLAIM To be a MODDER SUPREME..However..I am a 41 Year old with drive,determination and indomitable spirit as to keep pressing forward...TWEAKING,EDITING and also EXPERIMENTING!!

Hey..I am crawling whereas an expert such as Omnigod..or Harlan..or Wes..can whip right through these things...Heck..I'll keep posting and perhaps will learn enough to be a Half-decent Hacker...er...um..Modder!!

As allways..Thanks for all the help and assistance!!

Later

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

**Grandpa Troll** · February 27, 2001, 22:19

Ok..Update.....

I decided to go with 5 Civ's..(4 AI plus mine)

I am at turn 46..I have 7 cities...13 units..and as previously stated..am running at 1 year per turn..this is great..I am looking at my EXPLORED REGION..and yes Oh Yes..it is small in size compared to map..but vast in traveled area at this point!!..I feel like a true Discoverer..an implementer of a true Great Civilization...I shall indeed attempt to reach out to those i encounter..and with Diplomatic strides..ensure the Growth of each Individual Civilization..However my people have spoken they want..no..demand..no..rather INSIST..and IMPLORE me to Go forth and Spread my Kingdom Far and Wide..such as the Roman Kingdom of yesteryear...with Mongolian...and Hun-like thirst..alas...I feel like a little bit of Wizard of Oz...seeking that which is yet unkown..not yet manifested...not yet attained..but firm belief..I will quench the desires of my masses.....

Now..back to The Conquest of my World......

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

**Dale** · February 28, 2001, 02:06

Troll:
Good to hear you're having fun modding. Good luck with it. You'll find that once you get started modding the rest of it comes quickly. It's just getting started.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

**Bluevoss** · February 28, 2001, 15:21

My 2 cents - I love smaller maps, myself. I play on medium size with five civs. That gives me a good chance of falling over another civ VERY early in the game. Since I love hoplite battles and triremes, it really gives a great game.

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Bluevoss-

**Jerk** · March 1, 2001, 15:21

One thing you want to keep in mind when going with excessively large maps is game speed. Keep in mind that not only do the starting turns take longer but when you get into a very long game it will be even slower. Larger maps usually means larger empires for everyone. The more cities you have the more units you can support. The more units the game has to keep track of and move the slower the game will get. It also spreads the empires out more so combat is less likely early in the game which also leads to large empires. Huge empires take away alot of the balance issues associated with the game. With massive ammounts of cities you don't need to address balance issues nearly as much since you should end up with excesses in gold and science. It also allows you to absorb most of the problems you run into in keeping your empire intact. Losing 1 city out of 40 is not nearly as important as losing 1 city out of 20. This is especially true if you go through and tweak the max cities threshold for the governments.

To me huge megamaps are the equivilant of always playing on super mineral rich maps in Starcraft. Part of the challenge of the game is managing limited resources to achieve your goal.

What you do with your own game is fine, just don't blame the 'weak ai' when you are able to roll over everything and win every game after you rig it to ignore normal balance issues that the AI is programmed to consider regardless of the map size.

My 2 cents.
[This message has been edited by Jerk (edited March 01, 2001).]

**Grandpa Troll** · March 1, 2001, 19:40

I promise you this..I wont call the AI weak..or useless..or whatever most folks do..

I am as you have read..playing a Humongus map..with 5 civs total..plus mine..that being me..4 AI..plus Barbarians..I tweaked and am now looking at more tweaking..and yes sir..I will address AI issue..but as of now I am still a Babe in the Modding Woods!!

But i do assume the more tweaking I do..the more different the shipped game acts or should I say RE-acts!

But you see my friend I slaughtered the AI..in Shipped version..so I figured..(And I assure you I dont mean to be terse with you!!)..I payed $49.00 or so..(I forget??)so I might as well try configuring..RE-configuring..to see what I come out with..and if it doesnt do the way I want then I shall simply retreat..or at worse case..(It really is only a game..so not too bad my friend!)..I shall un-install and re-install..!!

But Thanks for your reply and happy Hunting my friend...

BTW..I do "Roll Over" most game I play..but again..I thank you for your input..

Happy Civin!!

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

**Dale** · March 1, 2001, 20:08

Go Troll!

Personally, I'm waiting for the day where the AI is good enough to handle a huge empire with a standing army etc that it attacks with.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

**Kull** · March 2, 2001, 01:27

There's an interesting conundrum here. Exploration of unknown terrain is a lot of fun, but conquering vast sprawling AI civs can be quite boring. So is it possible to have huge maps and ALSO restrict the size of AI civs?

Over in the Civ2 forums, a clever fellow learned that AI civs found cities only on two specific types of terrain. Looking deeper, he found this is related to an underlying piece of information in the map code. We're talking hex editing here, not messing with the rules file. He then ginned up a cool tool that allows one to develop maps in which the AI will only build cities on preselected sites. This would be a marvelous solution to the huge map dilemma. Of course a Civ2 solution may have little application in CTP2, but it's something you guys might want to explore a little further.

In my limited CTP2 play I've been amazed at the AI's willingness to found cities ANYWHERE, and it sure would be nice to impose some limitations on that process.

**Grandpa Troll** · March 2, 2001, 08:01

Thanks Kull

My "Ultimate purpose"..when I get done..or perhaps I may never "get done"..but rather a "waypoint"..if you will..is to take advice and guideance from fellow civers..then also do some tweaking and exploration throught he different files..to make a HUGE EMPIRE Conquest..

I have found this so far...

1)..Ai has kept up so far in rankings with me

2)I have put on Bloodlust..with 1 year per turn so as we get to all this science and then have plenty of years to "Engage"..if you will a "World Domination Tour"

3)I had increase Gold found in Huts..and AI has found as many..if not more than I..being able to complete a few Wonders in 3-4 turns..

4)The reason I wanted to make this big of a map was so I and AI could build a pretty good empire w/o feeling threatened..then attack/defend/conquer/trade/whatever..later in our life!

I'm off to work..will update soon!

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

**Flash** · March 2, 2001, 15:02

Troll,
Actually, I've been contemplating the use of Omni's SuperWorld map. The thing is going to be huge. So it would seem if it is usable and I think it will be awesome, You may be forced to use upwards of 28 civs to make things more historic and interesting. Huge Empires are going to be standard. True World wars more of a possibility in modern ages. New Mods are inevitable going to be made for it.
The main problem is going to be memory. I'm planing to update my memory to 256 or 384 MB. But What a prospect.
All I'm saying is I'm a big fan of big maps. I like the challenge and possibilities. Just remember the only real drawbacks of making very large maps are memory and possibly a very good video card. (I can only imagine what speed and memory requirements Omni's map will need in later stages. Play testing will be interesting.....)

__________________________________________________ ________________________

Flash
[This message has been edited by Flash (edited March 02, 2001).]

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