If you have comments about the AI, please read this before posting how bad is...

[Bluevoss]

I was just coming in here tonight with the idea of bringing that up. How about someone posting their files in zip format so that we can all try the NEW, IMPROVED version of the game?

Oh, and that bluevoss@bellsouth.net, if you're sending any out...



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Bluevoss-

[phoenixcager]

I agree completely with Alisia.
The game is still challenging for those who don't have an offensive style of play.

I've heard that the science victory in CtP2 (haven't attempted it) is the most difficult ever for a civ game.



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phoenixcager
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of the the Civilization Gaming Network. Visit the CGN Forums

[MrFun]

I have that special private organ, so I guess that makes me a guy.

Anwyay, a couple of guys made light-hearted jokes about the women. Here's a light-hearted joke for those who like military victory route best - the military victory method is for kiddies who can't win through more sosphisicated concepts.

[Alpha Wolf]

Peace thru superior weaponry.


Looks like my site accessible now. Have fun beating back the barbarians

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History is written by the victor.

[Jerk]

I like the military victory so I guess I am a kiddie

I like the diplomatic victory but diplomacy is also based on military strength. With a nice big military its easier to bully the AI into agreements. In the science victory you need 60% or more obelisk coverage. If the AI was aggressive it would see your strategy and unalliance from you and start pilliaging obelisks to stop you from winning so you should need military coverage to ensure a win. I played one game where the AI did in fact start pilliaging all my obelisks or at least tried. I have yet to play a game so far where the computer controlled nation starts or completes the science victory.

I personally dislike the diplomacy victory. I find it too easy to bully the AI into alliances. I also don't like the fact that the computers rarely if ever form them between themselves and try and beat you to the alliance victory. Has anyone yet lost to an alliance victory in a single player game? I hope not. Forming that last alliance the AI would need is equivilant to hitting the power switch. I like the concept of global alliances but it just doesnt seem right. Why would any player AI or human agree to an alliance knowing full well it ends the game with a victory for someone else? Besides, there is always some nation out there that won't play nice with everyone else.

Since the computer doesn't seem to like to try to beat you with the diplomatic victory, and it doesn't seem to o rushed to beat you with the science victory the only thing left to fear is a military defeat. And now we are back to square one, it doesn't even try to beat you that way very well.

Basic point: How can you lose playing a peace game?
I play games to win and enjoy a challege in getting the victory. Please please please lets not turn Civ into a Sim game.

[Jerk]

Another point about alliances:

Does the AI consider who else you allied with when agreeing to an alliance?

If AI1 and AI2 hate each other and you are allied with AI1, wouldn't AI2 be VERY VERY reluctant to sign an alliance with you since you are already allied with a mortal enemy? Or perhaps by signing an alliance with AI2 it should automatically cancel an alliance between yourself an AI1.

Seems to me that a true alliance victory should require global peace and alliances between all nations with each other instead of just one common one.


[This message has been edited by Jerk (edited January 05, 2001).]

[Locutus]

Mr Fun,

The files on your 'website' (it's more folder than a real website ) look interesting and I'll definetely try them out when I get the chance, but would you mind next time giving them an extension (.txt)? That makes trying out your code, even just looking at it, a lot easier (esp. for people who don't know DOS and these days few people do) In addition to that, putting the files in a zip would be nice too: it doesn't screw up the C/Rs (many people don't know how to deal with those) and it would be possible to download all files at once instead of having to get them one-by-one.

[The Viceroy]

AI Programming

Ive been programming for the last 15years, and AI coding for the last 5 years in various applications .. be it a simple lisp knowledge/action tree or a complicated second guessing AI of the neural nature in C .. The only reason I can see for an AI that is so lame in attack .. is if it was coded to learn .. and learn off you .. the only problem is, we all know that CTP2 doesn't learn anything.

This idea that somehow you need some amazing super computer to deal with complex AI is crazy .. yes its true, the more complex the game, the more information is needed to store, but if you use neural nets or even basic tree structures you can bypass the 99.9% of irrelavent info, and get straight to the answer when requesting an action.. it only require more memory, or more HD space .. not a faster CPU due to the nature of the search algorithm. The other issue is this, all we want is an aggressive foe, if the AI decided to build as many offensive units (and use them) as it does defensive .. we'd have a game .. that doesn't even require a complex AI .. just a change in rules governing how units are instructed and built.

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"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

[gascooker]

quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy on 01-05-2001 08:32 AM ...Ive been programming for the last 15years...

Really?

-just kidding - I've been complaining about CTP2 for (what feels like) 15 years

[Bluevoss]

I understand the basics of AI (not this AI, real AI) and have written one or two Lisp programs over the years. Really, it isn't rocket science- its more like "try everything possible and see what works best".

I remember when I worked freelance for SSI years ago. A guy there was making a space game where you would set up your power and shields and course, esentually try to out-predict the computer. Well, I asked him how difficult it was to tie AI into a 0-100% AI selectable level. He said not hard - the skill level was the percent chance that the computer would "peek" at your move and plot the best way to nail you.

Which makes we wonder on something like CTP2 - I wonder why they don't build a number of (for lack of a better word) attack runs. You know, make a map with invasion routes already established, along with potential city sites, and the like. That way, the computer could break things up into regions, and handle it accoridingly. Its sorta like building the world around the stratagies, rather than the other way round.

Of course, about the third time you saw the computer land on the same beach, you would grow suspicious. And it would make building worlds a lot harder.

Just thinking out loud.



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Bluevoss-

[MrFun]

Locutus - what 'website' or folder are you talking about? Are you talking about the modification ideas for my project that I posted in the Creation section of the forum? If so, I will post what .txt files I modified for you and others.

[Alpha Wolf]

I thought about the extensions after I uploaded last night. Since I was using it primarily as a way to get to my files during the day from work, it didnt occur to me that everyone might not know how to look at them. I was thinking about doing a quickie functioning website this weekend, and all future files will have their extensions. I probably wont be zipping until (or if) I ever get a mod together. The way I test is to make changes, play a game until I get sleepy, then upload the file so I can evaluate the game versus the changes I made the next day. Last night I was really happy to see a 12 stack of barbarians walk by my heavily defended city and into my not as heavily defended one. It thoroughly kicked my butt even tho I had 7 units in that city. A second smile was when my superior unit walked into a hut of barbarians. They didnt throw themselves at me, but instead stepped back, grouped, then kicked my butt.

At this point, it seems the AI is tweaked to my liking altho I've only played into the early 1000s AD. But I'm assuming that it'll still follow the basic rules i changed even as it gets better units.

Things I'm still working on are:
Generals;
Unit balancing, replacing game values with more realistic ones;
Natural Disasters,
Balanced AI stacks (5 front line, 5 ranged, 2 flanker);
Barbarian specific units;
AI naval strategy, not exactly sure why its so different than land;
Use of terrorists by the barbarians late in the game;
A mod builder that will have use friendly interfaces to make changes, then those changes will be propogated throughout all the necessary files. It will also allow different mods to be compared on a file basis. I've mapped most of this out, but time has become very limited lately so this will be awhile in coming.

With few exceptions, I'm using the advances/buildings/units that came with the game. Much later I may play around with a new tech tree. Having a fairly good idea of how the AI acts, lets me know how to set up a tree that even the AI will benefit from. Too many moders just add things that the human will use, like we need more advantages.


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History is written by the victor.

[Alisia]

Hmmm... Do you really think *that* is an AI? All you are talking about is some sort of database, and a simple 'randomizer' that picks a certain move. I can hardly call that an AI.

And something that randomly decides if she should think out a good move, or just do something, well, do you really call that "difficulty levels"? Man, why they heck did I study AI, if it is so simple...

[Martina]

quote: Originally posted by Alpha Wolf on 01-04-2001 07:58 PM I'll put my "website" on my apolyton profile so people can d/l at their own risk.

Alphawolf,

Thanks a lot !!! I will play with your files on Sunday and will tell you how I feel about them !

Kiss,
Martina

[Martina]

quote: Originally posted by Alpha Wolf on 01-04-2001 07:58 PM I'll put my "website" on my apolyton profile so people can d/l at their own risk.

Alphawolf,

Thanks a lot !!! I will play with your files on Sunday and will tell you how I feel about them !

Kiss,
Martina