PBEM Rules (version 2.0): Discussion

[Keygen]

PBEM Rules (version 2.0): Discussion


Welcome to the “PBEM Rules version 2.0” discussion thread!
Here you may discuss and comment any rule or propose a new one for PBEM.
Just remember that the fundamental rule of the PBEM rules is that any single rule can be excluded if agreed by all participants in a game that does use the "PBEM rules version 2.0".

Special thanks to Blackice who had read and commented a preview a month ago.
Many thanks go to Milamber for asking persistently about the progress of the rules, some months ago.
They are finally here and enriched!

Your comments are more than welcomed!

[Keygen]

And here are the PBEM rules version 2.0

[quinns]

Good work Keygen! A little opinionated sometimes to be called "rules", (with phrases like "the boring beginning" -- some of us think that the beginning is THE most crucial part of the game!! ). But it looks like it will be real helpful for players.

[Flandrien]

How can a moderator see if any of those cheats is used ?

[Keygen]

Originally posted by quinns
Good work Keygen! A little opinionated sometimes to be called "rules", (with phrases like "the boring beginning" -- some of us think that the beginning is THE most crucial part of the game!! ). But it looks like it will be real helpful for players.

Personal opinion was unavoidable but don't forget that it comes from a long experience
Everybody's opinion though is very important and I strongly encourage to express it here.
If a rule is proved to be oftenly excluded in the games that will use the PBEM rules version 2.0 will not be included in the next release.
If a new rule is proposed and is good it will be included in the next release as well.

As for the boring beginning and the rest, it is indeed very important as the rest of the game but waiting for the first 1-2 warriors and a settler to be built and move theme around a bit are easy to be done but having to wait a couple of weeks for that can be boring
The mod eliminates that.
Besides that is in the recommendation section and not the rules

Thanks for your comment Quinns

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Maestro
How can a moderator see if any of those cheats is used ?

I think it can work with private or public accusations as long as the moderator keeps the past 20-30 turns or so otherwise he will have to study every single turn he receives and compare it with previous ones, a task that is practically inapplicable. Some cheats might be improssible to be tracked but then again we can do nothing about it.

[Keygen]

Any first opinion?

[Frozzy]

It seems to cover every single angle... but I don't think the punishment for being found guilty of cheating is enough. It should be perma ban from all CtP PBEM games and competitions.

Also, I believe that "Buddying Up", which has been used in other TBS PBEM games, is a good idea. Basically it is: Two people buddy up. If someone is away, he should send a notice to his buddy, and the threads of games he is absent in. Then all turns go to his buddy while he is away.

This would eliminate the need to spend ages looking for a Temp Sub.

[Franses]

Good work, Keygen. Will you adapt it for CIVIII at some point?

I do have some questions/remarks. These are:

I prefer the Email notification instead of posting in the thread. Posting in the thread means that you have to go to Apolyton which takes more time than sending an e-mail. The same is true for the players. Deleting an e-mail takes less than 1 second. Going to a thread to check upon the status takes much more time (and I have cable, this is even more important for our friends with a dial-up connection)

Regarding the 24 hour rule:
1. IMO people should be allowed to be away for a weekend or for a couple of days. Of course they should notify the moderator and ask permission from the other players.

2. How realistic is the 24 hour rule? IMO we should strictly adhere to it but I notice that many moderators (if not all) are not that strict. I do not do it either because I doubt whether strict adherence to this rule would be really appreciated. But if we define the rule as is, we really should all DO it. It will certainly take down game time needed. If not (as now), let us define another rule.

Players nexted:
I don't think the moderator should be asked to really play the turn. It may get rather time consuming, he may know the position of the opponent etc. Just open the game and hit end.

Reporting rated games:
IMO this should be done by the creator not the moderator. If things go well the moderator does not need to look at a game for many turns (did never happen to me, though ). That's good. Reporting the status would force him to keep track of the game even if things go well. Also the creator will be much more interested in the game status and therefore it is easy for him to make the ten turn report.

Frans

[Keygen]

Originally posted by redbull

It seems to cover every single angle... but I don't think the punishment for being found guilty of cheating is enough. It should be perma ban from all CtP PBEM games and competitions.

I agree with you but the PBEM Rules are for use in the games and not universally. I want to avoid any rule that will apply to the entire community for now. Let's see how the PBEM Rules fit here and then we shall discuss if we need community rules as well. Besides if I catch a cheater here I will probably make it a public event

Originally posted by redbull

Also, I believe that "Buddying Up", which has been used in other TBS PBEM games, is a good idea. Basically it is: Two people buddy up. If someone is away, he should send a notice to his buddy, and the threads of games he is absent in. Then all turns go to his buddy while he is away.

This would eliminate the need to spend ages looking for a Temp Sub.

That's the idea
Plus if someone disappears for a couple of weeks he can be substituted with no pain.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Franses

Good work, Keygen. Will you adapt it for CIVIII at some point?

For sure! If they have some sort of success here of cource.

Originally posted by Franses

I do have some questions/remarks. These are:

Good

Originally posted by Franses

I prefer the Email notification instead of posting in the thread. Posting in the thread means that you have to go to Apolyton which takes more time than sending an e-mail. The same is true for the players. Deleting an e-mail takes less than 1 second. Going to a thread to check upon the status takes much more time (and I have cable, this is even more important for our friends with a dial-up connection)

I think many players would prefer that. If their time is quite limited and the connection slow or if the games are too many then they can simply send an email only. I do refer that within the rules anyway. However it can have its negative points like a) someone that might not receive the email or is having temporary email problems might not be able to figure out what is going on, b) people that prefer that method will most likely visit the forum less often, c) the threads will slowly fade away and d) people that play in many games will be forced to receive dozens of more emails in their mailbox.

For those that do prefer that method I propose something between. Send email but post in the threads as well periodically.

Personaly I always send an email notification and when I am not very busy I post in the threads as well.

Originally posted by Franses

Regarding the 24 hour rule:
1. IMO people should be allowed to be away for a weekend or for a couple of days. Of course they should notify the moderator and ask permission from the other players.

2. How realistic is the 24 hour rule? IMO we should strictly adhere to it but I notice that many moderators (if not all) are not that strict. I do not do it either because I doubt whether strict adherence to this rule would be really appreciated. But if we define the rule as is, we really should all DO it. It will certainly take down game time needed. If not (as now), let us define another rule.

1. The player can have a couple of days if he notifies the moderator or if not any the rest of the players. It is in the rules. If you want my opinion if the game doesn't suffer from delays and is pretty fast then even more days can be given if done only a few times. Under such ideal conditions some rules can be a bit elastic once in a while. We are not robots or the gestapo here

2. I beleive that it is very hard to enforce this rule but if we remove it or extend it in more days then things will get worse. I do agree with you but in busy days, we the moderators can't ensure 100% enforcement of this rule. Generally if a moderator persistently fails to do his job correctly he should be replaced. It has been done in the past and can be done in the future

However we can all be as consistent as possible and I agree with that but the only person here that I've never seen failing in his typical community obligations is Paul so far.

Originally posted by Franses

Players nexted:
I don't think the moderator should be asked to really play the turn. It may get rather time consuming, he may know the position of the opponent etc. Just open the game and hit end.

That is because you've never seen a game been changed hands and been nexted in between from the inner probably The last who will take over will have a damaged from neglect civ!
That was one of the fundamendal reasons for the first appearance of the whole moderator idea.
At list the moderator can do some basic moves and deliver it in a little better situation. Not to mention what can be saved in a critical situation which is not something completely rare.
I expect that moderators are as much objective as possible. He will work for the benefit of the civ but will not take advantage of his possible knowledge of an opponent. He doesn't have something to gain anyway.

Originally posted by Franses

Reporting rated games:
IMO this should be done by the creator not the moderator. If things go well the moderator does not need to look at a game for many turns (did never happen to me, though ). That's good. Reporting the status would force him to keep track of the game even if things go well. Also the creator will be much more interested in the game status and therefore it is easy for him to make the ten turn report.

Frans

I do refer in the rules that the reporting of the ratings can be done from a player, either the creator if he plays in the game (I have created lot of games that I do not play in ) or even better the player who has the higher PG and is rated. He will surely not lose any chance to report the ratings
I personaly do not report the ratings in the games I moderate. They are quite many and don't have the time and will to calculate them and reporting them

[Keygen]

Many thanks go to Redbull and Franses for their real helpfull commends and recommendation.

You have put some serious time and thinking here and I really appreciate it

[Frozzy]

No problem Keygen, anytime It's great to see the all the effort you put into CtP PBEM show for something.

[Kralj Matjaz]

Good work Keygen!

[Frozzy]

Another note:

If a player has been found cheating, and the moderator has called a council, I believe this should happen:

If a majority is found, then that decision goes. If it is even, then a re-vote will happen, with the moderator voting.

EDIT: I think the votes should go to the mod via PM, rather than on the thread, to keep the suspect from knowing, or having a vendetta against the people who voted against him/her