T.N.T. Part II

[blackice]

Turn 60 sent to Hunter

[Fuzzball]

Can you send me that email again please Hunter....this time also attaching the turn file.... thx.

[Hunter]

Hmm.. sorry about that Fuzzyball.. late night last night.. and forgot to put the brain in gear this morning..hehe

Turn resent... although it said turn 61?

[Fuzzball]

Cheers Hunter, Turn 61 received and sent on to Vitolg and Keygen.

(Ya, it goes up 1 turn from yours to mine Hunter)

[vitolg]

Hi guys,

I need to talk to you as vitolg, not Vitolg Ha-Melech. I would also like to ask our Moderator to get involded in the discussion.

I have just caught what disturbed me during the latest game development. First I thought Fuzzball of Maya recent accusations in granting Gunpowder to Romans as a kind of game diplomacy. But after that I undertook an investigation, took up the turn archive and verified that the knowledge exchange was indeed carried out in turn 46, just as Fuzzball claims. If so, the problem lays in the real life, because I screamed - how did he know?! Fuzz, could you really explain - how?

My answer is simple: the only way allowed you to know what had occured between Romans and Hebrews was reading my game messages. Unfortunately, Activision, like any other computer company wants big money without too much efforts, yesterday. Therefore there is actually no security in the PBEM mode. If there's such a lazy among you who doesn't know yet (I don't believe) - reading next player's messages is the least cheat. Some openings-closings - and you get full access to everybody's cards.

You know, I'm new to PBEM. Apparently, I had not done my homework starting the game without getting full knowledge regarding what is legal / illegal. I never used any of those tricks, but now, when I know about the little cheat used by Fuzz at least, I'm not sure he or anybody have not used the big cheat, especially when my ship of the line was "accidentally" discovered and destroyed by Maya - though they did not show any intention to deploy at the same emplacement. Especially taking into account that Maya did not research Bureaucracy, seem not to establish any embassy, etc.

Fuzz and all, please excuse me for the suspicions. Lost of the ship could really be accidental. Anyway, I neither have no proof nor need any. Again, I don't know what is legal or illegal. I would appreciate any reference on previous discussions on such issues. Please understand me. My point is that any tricks should be allowed unless you cannot have a control mechanism. The game will not be less interesting in this case - on the contrary, it would be even more difficult, with probably more subtle strategy and even diplomacy. But now I'm feeling stupid with all that city walls I built, diplomats on the borders, etc. Please help to renew interest to the game. I'm looking forward to hear your opinions.

[DeVil]

Turn 61 to Nuke Boy.

[Fuzzball]

Vitolg, if you go to diplomacy options, and go to offer tech to a nation, you can clearly see what tech you have that you can offer...which will tell you what tech you have that they don't....When you give this tech to one nation one turn, then see that you can no longer offer it to another....it takes very little to put 1 and 1 together to work out one gave it to the other. It's a tactic commonly used online, to check who is trading techs, or what tech you are ahead on, without having embassies. Try it out sometime.....

Your ship never "mysteriously disappeared" either....I had two sol's in the same bay....I moved one east at the start of the turn...bumped into your ship...bombarded it once...when it didn't sink, I moved the other there and bombarded it with that one also.

I can understand you feeling somewhat bitter at the recent turn of events in the game. But if I'm to be accused of cheating like this I'd prefer to play for an hour or two a week online without others insecurities to deal with. Hunter and Nukeboy have both played as host to games with me online many times before....games of which I have had no saves at all, and still played in a very similar fashion. I guess you just can't do well without people accusing you of something wrong....

[vitolg]

Fuzzball,

the tactic you described is great but cannot explain why, when "calculating" the fact of the knowledge exchange immediately (!) after it had happened, you didn't even considered the Romans had discovered the tech by themselves. Or got it as a gift from any other nation besides Hebrews. If you were more careful in reacting, you'd not leave a chance for suspicions. Your fearless considerations are reasonable: me and DeVil are newbies at Apolyton, so there's a chance we don't know about all the cheat possibilities.

An interesting thing happened with that sea battle as well. Before I moved my SOL out of Jaffa I had carefully though out the whole situation, especially taking into account my suspicions having just arised. It would be much more clever to leave my brand new ship and two samurais inside the city and prepare for defense in the face of attacks from the sea. Instead, I left Jaffa with miserable phalanx inside and undertook a kind of provocation. Just like in chess, I forced you to make the only possible step - "discover" my ship with two samurais aboard near your coast at an absolutely hidden spot. All that - with all the possible and tempting damage your two stacked ship could quite safely do in my watters instead of going eastbound: destroy the rest of the nets, start bombarding cities, etc. (Don't tell me you were afraid to do so two turns ago bewaring of my cannons and ships. Now, after I rendered lifless my cities, you feel safe bombarding them, don't you?) You suddenly got feel so addicted to the East just because otherwise you could lose one of your cities. Why am I so sure? I'll reveal you a big secret: I cheated to get sure I'm not cheated. I was very happy to find out that neither no your unit except those SOLs could accidentally reveal my ship nor no your other unit was able to destroy it before being too late.

I have tired the audience, so let's go to the bottom line. None of those considerations can really prove anything. And there's no need to. We're, fortunately, not in a court, and we don't play for money. I'm not charging you in cheating, not angry at you and will be happy to play with you in other games. Because the only person deserving accusations is myself. My fault is though, starting PBEM, I took into account danger of cheating, I had not arranged my strategy according to it. I do believe the game can be interesting with cheating, maybee the most interesting challenge would be playing honestly suspecting everybody at the same time. Cheating can make the game look like chess. Though all the board is viewed, the life is not easier. But that requires a strategy, different from that I used to use in TNT. Therefore the purpose of all this boring speech is to explain why I'm forced to resing, ask Keygen to join me to another game - a new one or as a substitute.

I would like to thank you all and - see your later! )

vitolg

[Fuzzball]

This was my first Pbem also Vitolg... I just played like I do in online games. Did you ever stop to think that those ships were in that bay to patrol for possible danger?.... No... I MUST have cheated to beat you...ofcourse..... Is this how everyone else in the game feels? If it is we can easily abort the whole thing.
Yeah...I'd look forward to playing you again, so I can face further insinuations of cheating in the future.... Perhaps we'll meet online one day and you can host a game without allowing me any saves, just to be sure of the way I play.... But , then again, maybe not.
I have achieved my position in the game with good, honest, strategically sound actions. To work my ships from the west to east of the bay would only be common sense in any game, to patrol for possible naval threats. To pillage along the way is just a bonus.
But I truly think there's little possibilty of convincing you that I have you beat without opening your turns. So what's the point in argueing....If this is how the rest of the players feel, then I'd rather dump the game than continue. Because every time I take a victory someone will cry cheat.
Thanx for your input I guess.

[blackice]

Hi guys

In the future if you believe there is a problem toss it to the moderator to sort out. This is the reason for the moderators along with keeping the turns going of course. The moderator will monitor the situation and make a judgement on the situation. This way we avoid the pit falls of say the hd people which of course fell apart at the seams as animosity between the players grew.

In PBEM it is easy to open up turns and spy on the opponent it's not right and we use basic honesty to hold it together.
Consider though that it may happen and adjust your strategy to accommidate for the posibility.

Vitlog you have done the honorable and admitted you viewed the files and have choosen to leave the game good job. But next time contact the moderator discuss your concerns and leave it in their hands thus avoiding having to open turns and removing yourself from the game

Now so we are all comfortable with this I ask the moderator to view the situation and rule on the disput please

Vitlog go to the recrutement center (If you can post there it seems buggy these days) a new game is starting sign up.

Pat is new and wants to get into a game if no objections we should invite him to take over the spot to get the game going.

hope that helps...

[Hunter]

While I am sorry to see vitolg go, I agree with Blackice in thinking the moderator should have been called in to look at the situation if he had suspecion of cheating. I have played with Fuzzy many time and have found him to be a very honurable player who would never cheat, and I believe him when he says that he has not.. there is no reason to think otherwise... is this a case of sour grapes because of the loss of a couple of SOL's? We all know that it would be easy to cheat in these games.. but what would be the point in that? I play trusting the other people in the games aren't cheating, and know the same goes for me.. again what would be the point.. I think it would take the fun out of it

Thats my two cents worth.. and Fuzzy I for one don't want you to go

[PatRussell]

Hi,

Blackice told me there was an opening in this game. Looks like vitolg's spot? Let me know if I'm in.

Pat

[vitolg]

Blackice,

I really appreciate your understanding. You seem to get me right that the problem lays in my head only, and nobody is guilty. That is also why I did not complain to the Moderator and will not in the future. Again, on no account I want anybody to feel bad. Let's assume we've had an example of "ornate" diplomacy in purpose to leave losing game "not losing the face" - or how you say it in English?. (Does anybody can guess whether I sincere? )

Keygen asked me to continue playing till a sub will be available, so if it suits you I have no problem with it. You know, I'm even ready not to resign from the game on conditions Hebrew will be granted 15 years of peace with every nations.

[blackice]

Even if you think, suspect just go to the moderator that way it is done discreetly and no one gets any ideas just the facts.

Use the moderators thats what they are for. It has been set up this way to keep it as clean as we can and avoid the pitfalls of other game leagues no names of course But the hd threads come to mind.

So any problems does not matter just go to the moderator ok?

[vitolg]

Ok, Blackice.

Just wondering what decision a moderator can take and on what basis. In most cases cheat cannot be proven, can't it?. And has an idea of cheat legalization been ever discussed?