Company, Battalion, Division, Corps ... Yikes!

[quinns]

Here is my amended proposal:

Army:
1 unit = 1 Battalion
3 units = 1 Brigade (3 Battalions)
9 units = 1 Division (3 Brigades )
More than 9 units = Corps or Army depending on the size of the entire army a player has, as something like
this happens in the true world. (Small armies do not have corps where big armies do.)

Air Force (including Space units):
1 unit = 1 Air Squadron
3 units = 1 Wing (3 Air Squadrons)
9 units = 1 Air Division (3 Wings)
More than 9 units = Air Command

Navy:
1 unit = 1 Ship (Submarine, etc.)
3 units = 1 Naval Squadron (3 Ships)
9 units = 1 Task Force (3 Naval Squadrons)
More than 9 units = Fleet

[This message has been edited by quinns (edited February 26, 2001).]

[King Thor]

That's interesting but honestly Quinns, You'll never have too many Armies or Army groups. Where as in reality when wars break out, you have entire armies moving.

In most of my games I work in the following way

1 Unit= Battalion
9 Unit= Division
Army is a subjective amount. It is basically all the units I have assigned to do a certain task. Defend a border, attack a country. It is 1 group of all the fighting units that are carrying out a certain task.


But I like your idea. Except that, After corps the numbers get too high.
I suggest.

1 Unit = Battalion
3 Battalions = Brigade (3 Units)
3 Brigaes = Division (9 units)

No. Corps.

Army is abstract. It could be a brigade, it could be a Division. It could be several divisions. Etc.

=====
Also these numbers change.
Armies in the ancient times were very small, (about the size of a division today MAX). Armies of 10,000 were considered to be immense in the dark ages.

We also have to keep that in mind.

[This message has been edited by King Thor (edited December 06, 2000).]

[quinns]

Good points, Thor. Sounds like a plan then, i.e. stop at Division level = 9 units, (3 Brigades).

Anyone else? It would be good if we could all talk the same language. I know some people are calling a single unit a "Division". Very confusing, especially if it is your ally!

[King Thor]

Early on in the game ( until modern age)

I too call a single unit a division. And anything more than one unit (or even one unit depending on how early in the game), is an army. Because thats how it was back then. Armies were small. In the modern age it makes more sense to use the Battalion/brigade/division/army system.

[Lung]

Stupid U.S. Army convention?!? Actually, it's quite okay, but i use the Australian convention (at least the WWI convention);-

116 soldiers = Company
8 Companies = Battalion
4 Battalions = Brigade
3 Brigades = Division
3-5 Divisions = Army

However, this makes it difficult to correlate to CTP Units, with stacks of 9 and so forth. We either end up with an army with just three or four 9-stacks, or 12 9-stacks just to make up one division! Therefore, for ease of use, and in fitting with the costs of units in CTP, i use;-

1 CTP Unit = Company
3-5 CTP units = Battalion
8-9 CTP Units (1 stack) = Brigade
3 stacks = Division
8-12 stacks = Army

This allows for multiple armies for huge civs, as did the Russians and other in WWI. Otherwise, in order to build an entire army, you would have already had to conquer most of the world. Alternatively, you end up with everyone running around with a dozen or so armies, which is equally ridiculous.

I must admit, though, that i used to call a 9-stack a division until i realised that i had about 5 armies, and was still losing a war I also called single units a Regiment, until i found out that Regiments are something else altogether (in the Australian army, at least). The Australian Army does (or at least did) use Corps, but i don't know how that fits into the scheme of things. I found my info on a historical website dealing with Australia's involvement in WWI.

I guess it doesn't matter much, but i think a standard for CTP in PBEM would be ideal.

[King Thor]

How would we be dealing with air and naval forces?

1 unit = 1 squadrom?
9 Quadrons = 1 wing?

Dunno

And naval vessels?
What makes a Task force?

The point is, we cant come up with a standard (without a whole bunch of complications). Some armies are bigger than others.

Besides what about early on in the game? we'll need to set it up stage wise. ie. for the first 50 turns (blah blah blah) for the next 100 turns (blah blah blah). .etc. etc.

[Lung]

Gee, my post was almost out of date by the time i sent it! No one had replied at that stage, but i forgot to send it.

Anyway, the size of an army is academic, as in reality, an army is the total of force a country has at it's disposal. In cases such as WWI and WWII, armies has long been divided into battlions and so forth, and had become so large, that some countries had multiple armies.

I guess the question is - how does this relate to CTP? Well, i think your army is either your entire land force, or perhaps a single massive invasion force if your army is enourmous (as often happens in PBEM, at least). I only use the terms 'division', 'brigade', etcetera if my forces are combined for a single purpose. For example, in the case of war, if i have, say, three 9-stacks, i will refer to them on the messageboard in total as "1st Australian Division", which usually includes many types of units. One stack may be the "2nd Australian Infantry Brigade" if they're all Musketeers, or a 3-stack of Cavalry providing hit-and-run support referred to as "5th Australian Cavalry Battalion". A stack defending a city might normally be referred to as a "Garrison", particularly in ancient times, but if more than 3-4 units, i might refer to them as being supported by certain Battalions or whatever.

What hasn't been mentioned so far is Air Forces and Navies. I actually like a strong Navy, because they're the only units where 1 unit equals 1 ship. I can (and often do) name ships, and only if it's ahead of it's time will a ship be named HMAS Lung, because i can't risk it being sunk

As for an Air Force, i consider a unit to be an entire squadron, but i don't know what larger groups of aircraft are called, but would like to find out.

As i like the historical aspect of Civ games, i only ever use a given name once, so occasionally i end up with "12th Brigade" and "17th Brigade" but no Brigades with single figures, because they've already died

Hopefully, in long PBEM games, when they're finished i will compile a history of that world and refer to such units by name in whatever war they were involved in. Although, by then, everyone will be playing Civ3 and it will probably never be read

Does anyone feel similarly about naming units and creating a standard for naming unit sizes? I don't really car ewhich model is used, as long as it's standard.

[quinns]

Well that's about the stupidest thing I have ever heard, Lung! But I guess it's quite alright, really. So what are you saying? A unit can be a Division or a Brigade or a Battalion or what ever you feel like calling it at the time, is that it? That sure clarifies it. Stupid Australian convention!

Just kidding Lung . Hey, when are we going to get you on our rating system anyway?? You've beaten Deity on solo, right? We'll put you down as 21.000 (Deity) unless you say otherwise.

But I do still like King Thor's suggestion. Just stop at Division Level (9 units). I think it's good enough. "I'm sending 6 divisions... 10 divisions... etc." We don't need to go higher than that. AND STOP CALLING A SINGLE UNIT A DIVISION THOR! No wonder I'm all confused all the time (among a variety of other reasons )

Proposed Air Force and Navy groupings:

1 Air Unit = Squadron
3 Air Units = Wing (3 Squadrons)
9 Air Units = Air Division (3 Wings)

1 Naval Unit = Ship (Name it whatever you like, HMAS Lung!)
3 Naval Units = Task Force (3 Ships)
9 Naval Units = Fleet (9 Ships)

The reason for sticking with the 1,3,9 groupings is simply because you are only allowed to put 9 units in one tile.

[deleted]

How bout this.

1 unit = an army
3 units = a big army
9 units = a really big army

[King Thor]

Here here! .. I vote for the convention suggested by deleted!!

...
The reason I use Division for one unit in the pre-modern stage of the game is because that's exactly how it was. Armies were small. Divisions were smaller. Therefore, these are the naming conventions I propose.


=====================
Pre-modern

1 unit = Division
3 units and up Army.


Modern- post-modern

1 unit - battalion
3 battalion - Brigade
3 brigade - Division
Army = 1 or more divisions.

----------------------------
Air Force (just like quinns suggested.
--CUT-N-PASTE--
1 Air Unit = Squadron
3 Air Units = Wing (3 Squadrons)
9 Air Units = Air Division (3 Wings)

1 Naval Unit = Ship (Name it whatever you like, HMAS Lung!)
3 Naval Units = Task Force (3 Ships)
9 Naval Units = Fleet (9 Ships)


===================================
All in favour say Aye!.. All opposed. say Aye!

[Lung]

Sorry, Quinns, but the Great Lung has not beaten CTP solo on deity. Why not, you ask? Not enough RAM to play a large game, baby! I have to win quick, or i can't finish the game! That's my excuse, anyway

Okay, so i've only beaten CTP on King level, but i have won a PBEM game of three players in under 150 turns on Warlord, i think. And i beat the mighty Don to boot! Sneaky, conniving, flanking Don, the bastard

Obviously you didn't read it correctly, Quinns! Either that, or i didn't write it correctly Anyway, as long as players don't go around claiming to have 20 armies, i don't care. And you can ignore anything that Sophix says, regardless of what name he uses

[Lung]

O' Infinitely Stupid Quinns, The Great Lung was entirely consistent in his use of unit naming, and in the case of Quinns, consistent in his use of name calling

The only loose use of a term was in army. Have you ever heard of the Nigerian "58% Army"? No. And neither have i. Your army is your entire force, i admit i said, but a battalion being anything from a blind policeman and a three-legged dog to a billion bisexual alien drag queens i don't recall saying. In fact, with these new computer internet thingies, i can look up and see what i wrote before Gasp! Lung is positively psychic! He can see into the....PAST!!!

Sorry, my sarcasm is running rampant at the moment, but i couldn't resist the opportunity to insult a rookie pbem player, particularly one as prolific as Quinns

Besides, how could anyone not understand a drunk and deluded Aussie?!?

[Keygen]

Sophix is into joking around all the time

Interesting topic Quinns!
I always had the question what terms to use to refer to a single unit or to a stack of units combined with a historical aspect.
I always use the term unit or untis to refer to one or more units together but I would prefer to use some of your suggestions. I had only once refered to a single unit as battalion and it was a warrior. I don't think that division would be right for a single unit Thor even at early ages. There where large armies in the ancient times also. Remember the Persian army sent to Greece and the legions the Romans had. They were quit big. Of course there was not as large as the German army or the American or Russian army at the WW2 but in the other hand this has nothing to do with the size of the army that you are able to build in any time in the CTP. We need a common term to refer to a size of unit formations independently ages.

My proposal is:

Army:
1 unit = 1 Battalion
3 units = 1 Brigade (3 battalions)
9 units = 1 Division (3 Brigades )
more than 9 untis = corp or army depending of the size of the entire army of a player as something like this happens in the true world (Small armies do not have corps when big armies do). It could be convinient to refer to corp for large armies for 2-4 division or to army for the same number for a smaller army.

Air Force:
1 unit = 1 ???
3 units = 1 Squadron
9 units = 1 Wing (3 squadrons)
more than 9 units = Air Group or Air Division

Navy:
1 unit = 1 ship (or submarine, etc.)
3 units = 1 Task Force (3 ships)
9 units = 1 ???
more than 9 units = Fleet

Finaly it's up to anyone to refer to any unit with any term he feels like! It would be nice to use universal terms but as I said it's up to anyone

[quinns]

ROOKIE! Well let me tell you something Lung, I've played more than 10 turns on PBEM!! ...
Okay... Maybe I am a Rookie PBEMer, but I've been playing war games for over 35 years! ...big deal ... So why don't you go change your diapers, Oh Great Lunger, and maybe I will grace you with my presence once again, for I can no longer bear the SMELL!

Alright Lung, all kidding aside, I'll put you down with a rating of 18.000 (King), but wait a minute, who is this "Don" that you defeated? (This rookie CTP PBEMer don't know all first names yet.) Is he rated higher than 18.000? If so, you will receive the same rating as him.

[TheBirdMan]

Hey Quinns (your old man).

Don't underestimate Lung (and Don for that sake)

If I remember right from earlier posts, also games where you were in a CLEAR winnerposition, but not played to an end, counts

Don't let him slip away with a rating lesser that 19.000.

It's not fun to be a "21.000" and be beaten by a "17.000" or "18.000"
[This message has been edited by TheBirdMan (edited December 07, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by TheBirdMan (edited December 07, 2000).]