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**Kloreep** · June 10, 2006, 15:46

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**Kloreep** · June 10, 2006, 15:55

It's clear that Vox has founded Hinduism, as the game told us that as soon as we contacted Sarantium. I think we can also figure out who founded Buddhism: Sarantium.

Here's why: If you look at the culture graph, it shows us rising constantly past them for a while (as it should be with a Creative civ producing 4 culture vs. a non-creative one producing 2) BUT they then experience a spike upwards and begin (and continue) to gain on us in culture around the time Buddhism was founded, which would be consistent with them gaining +5 culture from their city being its holy city.

In the 3240 BC save we can see in the Top 5 Cities screen that their city is at size 2. In the Religions screen, Buddhism is shown as having 13% sway in the world, while Hinduism has 20%. In the top 5 cities screen, the top two cities are size 3 and the other three are size 2. Assuming that everyone is at size 2 except us (at size 1) and those two civs with size 3 cities, there are 15 population points in the world. 3 divided by 15 comes nicely to 20%, giving us the extra information that the Hindu city (which we can safely assume is the Vox capital) is one of the two size 3 cities in 3240 BC. 2 divided by 15 is 13%, so Buddhism was founded by a civ that had a size 2 city in 3240 BC, consistent with Sarantium showing as size 2 in 3240 BC.

I know of nothing else that could give them the culture boost to actually start closing the culture gap; the only other things I can think of are them building an Obelisk and them having their city converted to a religion. The conversion looks impossible to me; with the percentages present, one simply cannot have a size 2 converted city PLUS a holy city with additional population. (Even positing that it's Hinduism they were converted to, it is impossible to make things match up to the 20% influence. If one makes the Vox holy city size 1, it's then 3/14 rather than 3/15, which should be 21% rather than 20%.) The Obelisk I found extremely doubtful as it is an unwise build. And +1 culture would still leave them generating less culture than our Berlin, leaving us to still gain on them in culture. The only thing I am not able to figure out in this is why we aren't told they founded Buddhism. Since we haven't actually found the city of Sarantium on the map, I would imagine that's why the game won't show it as the holy city; but why isn't there an icon next to their name like with Vox? I think there may be a bug with the game trying to fit their long name in the window. That or some other bug. Or there's some source of culture I haven't figured out and I'm completely off with their having founded Buddhism.

**Octavian X** · June 10, 2006, 23:03

An icon only appears next to a civ when that civ actually has a state religion. It's entirely possible the Sarantium found Buddhism WITHOUT adopting it as the state religion - and I could only guess that they wouldn't want to interrupt something with that turn or anarchy.

**Kloreep** · June 11, 2006, 18:21

Ah, that would make sense.

One wonders why Vox adopted it. They aren't spiritual, and they can't be that bad off for happiness to go through anarchy this early for it.

**Kloreep** · June 12, 2006, 18:11

I think I may not understand how religion is calculated...

In the 3200 BC save, we can see that there are now 3 size 3 cities. That should take the world population up to 16, yet Buddhism and Hinduism are still at 13% influence and 20% influence respectively. This would make the world influence of Sarantium's Buddhism 12.5%, which would still come to 13% if the game rounds up at .5 and above; but Vox's Hinduism should now be at 18.75%, or 19% rounded up. Why is it still 20%?

**Kloreep** · July 5, 2006, 23:40

Updated.

Copy of OzzyKP's 3000 BC power graph analysis from the Second City Placement thread:

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Ok, I started up a new SP game to analyze the power graph.

Things that count:
Techs
Military buildings (barracks)
Units

Things that don't count:
Connecting resources
Partially built units (duh, but answering it anyways, heh)

So I can tell a lot about what our opponents have done so far from the graph.

With some certainty I can saw the Horde has Archery & Animal Husbandry. Sartanium has neither. For Sartanium their two increases in power came from either building a warrior or inventing a low tech like hunting.

Neither of them have bronze working. So we are ahead with that. If we wanted to be really aggressive I think we could easily rush Sartanium with a spear & ax and take their city. Horde has at least one archer.

So I definitely think we'd be safe to settle aggressively.

**OzzyKP** · July 11, 2006, 15:44

I came across a more detailed power graph analysis:

The inner workings of the Demo screen explained

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163098

I have noticed that there has been a fair amount of argument about the Demographics screen, both with how they get the numbers and what they mean. So I decided to do a little digging through the code and do some experiments to see how it all worked to see if the Demographics can be of any use...

Soldiers- This has been the most intensive and by far the longest to research, as there are many factors that contribute to this number. Firstly it has no bearing on the total units you have in fact you could have zero units but show 100000+ soldiers in the demo screen, you will see how in a second.
Factor 1- Population points. For every two population points from all your cities you get 1000 soldiers. So;
1pop = 0 soldiers
2pop= 1000
3pop= 1000
4pop= 2000
5pop= 2000
6pop= 3000 and so on.

Factor 2- Technologies. Discovering some technologies (mostly military but not exclusively) gives you extra soldiers. I have to say some of them struck me as a little strange, like Military tradition gives you zero but hunting gives you 2000, but I’m not here to argue about that. Here is the list of techs that give you soldiers. If they are not listed then they give zero soldiers.

2000 soldiers – Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry
4000 soldiers- Guilds, Wheel, Alphabet, Astronomy, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction, Steel, Radio, Satellites
6000 soldiers- Mathematics, Chemistry, Combustion, Archery
8000 soldiers- Fission, Flight, Bronze Working, Machinery, Assembly Line
10000 soldiers- Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Artillery, Industrialism, Rocketry
12000 soldiers- Gunpowder, Rifling

Factor 3- City Improvement/Wonders. Like discovering some technologies, build certain improvements and wonders will increase the amount of soldiers you have on the demo screen. In this case you amount added for each improvement. For example you get 2000 soldiers for each wall you build, so if you have 5 walls, you have an extra 10000 soldiers. With wonders that give you soldiers, you can only build one so you only get that bonus once. Here is the list of what you get for each improvement. Improvements that don’t give soldiers are not listed.

2000 soldiers- Walls, Castles, Dry dock, Forge, Factory
4000 soldiers- Barracks, Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point

Factor 4- Units. Finally each unit type has a different amount of soldiers attached to it, so a warrior contributes 1000 soldiers, while a Swordsman is 3000 soldiers. Interestingly enough a units experience points has no bearing on the amount of soldiers it equates to. Units such as scouts, workers missionaries and spies contribute zero soldiers to the demo screen. Here is the full list of what you get for each unit;

1000 soldiers – Warrior, Quechua
2000 soldiers – Axeman, Spearman, Archer, Chariot, Galley
3000 soldiers – Swordsman, Phalanx, Skimisher, War Chariot, Immortal, Horse Archer, Catapult, Caravel
4000 soldiers – Jaguar, Praetorian, Maceman, Pikeman, Longbowman, Crossbowman, Keshik, War Elephant, Galleon
5000 soldiers – Samurai, Cho-Ko-Nu,
6000 soldiers – Musketman, Knight, Frigate, Ironclad, Transport,
8000 soldiers – Musketeer, Camel Archer, Conquistador, Cannon, Destroyer, Submarine
10000 soldiers – Rifleman, Grenadier, Machine Gun, Carrier
12000 soldiers – Redcoat, Cavalry, Battleship
15000 soldiers – Cossack, Fighter, Jet Fighter, Bomber
16000 soldiers – Infantry
18000 soldiers – Marine
20000 soldiers – SAM Infantry, Gunship, Artillery, Stealth Bomber
22000 soldiers – Navy SEAL
25000 soldiers – Tank
30000 soldiers – Panzer, Mechanized Infantry
40000 soldiers – Modern Armor, ICBM

**Kloreep** · July 25, 2006, 00:20

I went back ot the turn we made contact with Sarantium and we could see Hinduism as Vox's stae religion before we made contact.

So much for the Vox contact idea.

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