800 AD and our next tech is?

[binTravkin]

So we have to decide what should be our next tech to research.

Options are listed and they are pretty few.

1 - Biding our time:
Drama (1 turns) - almost done, but we can trade it from Mercs (have to choose what's better - trade it or put that remaining turn and finish it).
Music (4) - I guess we can still get that artist if we want to.


2 - Let's finish GS:
Gunpowder (6) - would make us pretty much winners of the war since GS is nowhere near better troops than their current (they also haven't been researching for a while), it also opens up path to Chemistry

3 - Let's get ahead in research:
Education (10) - of little immediate use, only perhaps to build an University in Beijing, but is a prereq to Liberalism and Economy.
Liberalism (7) - extra free tech, but we need Philosophy for this one.

4 - Let's improve our, umm.. cottages?
Printing Press (8) - pretty much useless to us right atm, we need some more cottages first.

5: - Let's kill our Colossus!
Astronomy(10) - obsoletes our Colossus, so there's little reason we'd want it

[Mart]

The longer we stay in war, the more war exhaustion will bother us.
Maybe the priority should be to end the war. Gunpowder...

[PJayTycy]

gunpowder !

[-SafaN-]

how far are mercs from music? divine rights?

i'd also agree with ending war asap so gunpowder

[Impaler[WrG]]

The gun powder->Chemistry line is defiantly our long term plan at this time. The Drama->Music grab is valuable only for the Great Artist we could get, which is itself valuable primarily for popping Davine Right (most of it at least). We've calculated that this popping roughly pays for the cost of the Drama->Music input so long term its double research points and we can grab Islam and have early access to the desirable Wonders at DR. So this culture line is quite desirable. I think theirs a very slim chance that Mercs are pushing towards Music themselves but we should be able to beat them too it if we start now. If we wait till after GP the chances are worse, my path recommendation would be.

Drama -> Music -> GP -> Chemistry

Our current tech is more then adequate for blunting GS Elephants as we will be building some Pike man very soon and they fight as well as Muskets would vs Elephants. I'd stay on the containment strategy until Grenadiers as I find that Muskets at base of 9 are not effective at breaking through a Long Bowman based defense which can easily have a modified defense of 10 or more.

We should be pumping out Economic improvements particularly Markets, Banks and Libraries along with Pike men for the next 20 turns or so combined with strong tech sales we reach Chemistry with a large reserve of funds to insta-upgrade an awesome Grenadier army.

[binTravkin]

I agree with Impaler on usability of Musketmen - though they are gunpowder units which means it's harder to have bonus vs them, they also don't get chance of city attack upgrade whereas macemen do.
A combination of maces and pikes is even more powerful than musketmen.

[binTravkin]

News from the turn:

GS has started researching and switched to Bureaucracy, which means we might need to run for Liberalism (there's little else they could be researching - perhaps Engineering or Metal Casting, for war purposes).

We're also 5 turns away from a GP, which has following possibilities:
GP:10
GA:10
GS:30
GM:20
GE:30

We're also currently running a exact 50/50 economy (getting 100% in either direction has us losing/gaining the same amount of money).
That means we can expand soon (we should try to keep ourselves around 50/50 for most efficient use of economy/science boosting buildings).

[binTravkin]

Sorry this time only endturn - discussed stuff with Safan, Impaler and Lacero in the turnchat.

In the end it was decided to take Drama and then Music as our next techs to try and get the GA since Gunpowder is of very limited value (marginal offensive gains for 10%+ cost and no defensive gains vs GS units) and Liberalism b-line still seems a bit expensive (this will change in 2 turns as we finish bank in Beijing).

Knights moved in halfway for the iron raid, but it looks like GS will spot us there - they have positioned a skirm and a longbow on that hill where we last landed. It might be good as it gives them more alarm and bad as we might meet serious resistance on that iron hill.

[PJayTycy]

here is the skype log...

anyone online ?
[19/06/2008 21:12:22] binTravkin : I have the turn open
[19/06/2008 21:12:34] binTravkin : Did the domestic stuff and moved rear units
[19/06/2008 21:12:56] Impaler[WrG] : me
[19/06/2008 21:13:44] Lacero : me kinda. too tired to think
[19/06/2008 21:14:29] Impaler[WrG] : we need to desice tech dont we?
[19/06/2008 21:14:36] binTravkin : yeah we do
[19/06/2008 21:14:56] binTravkin : currently most voices go for Gunpowder
[19/06/2008 21:15:06] binTravkin : but GS is researching and Gunpowder gives us little
[19/06/2008 21:15:32] Impaler[WrG] : I'd like to point out that Drama + Music would open up 4 wonders
[19/06/2008 21:16:03] Impaler[WrG] : Wonders are ware we have a large comparitive advantage
[19/06/2008 21:16:04] Lacero : I'm not sure we need any more wonders. maybe the +25% defence one
[19/06/2008 21:16:22] Lacero : at least, any more right now
[19/06/2008 21:16:29] Impaler[WrG] : Shakesperes Theather = Permently happy Begjing
[19/06/2008 21:16:52] binTravkin : well the only real wonder I see is Notre Dame
[19/06/2008 21:17:03] binTravkin : we'd be far from Globe Theatre anyway
[19/06/2008 21:17:09] binTravkin : we'd need 6 theatres
[19/06/2008 21:17:24] Impaler[WrG] : they are quite cheap though
[19/06/2008 21:17:39] |SafaN| : end the war, then think about building again
[19/06/2008 21:17:48] Impaler[WrG] : if we expect the war to go on for any sizable time we might need the happyness
[19/06/2008 21:18:03] |SafaN| : good point
[19/06/2008 21:18:10] binTravkin : yeah end the war Safan, but we don't need war tech for now
[19/06/2008 21:18:19] Impaler[WrG] : we've retreated in the face of their Elephants the war cant possibly be ended in less then 20 turns
[19/06/2008 21:18:20] binTravkin : Musketmen are 80h and 9strenght
[19/06/2008 21:18:46] binTravkin : Maces are 70h and can be up to 9.6 vs cities (vs musketman 9.9) ground up
[19/06/2008 21:19:14] binTravkin : Pikes are 60h and 12 vs ellies
[19/06/2008 21:19:25] |SafaN| : hmm so what about drama - music - using GA for divine rights
[19/06/2008 21:19:40] Impaler[WrG] : basicaly Muskets aren't going to crack the GS defenses
[19/06/2008 21:19:52] binTravkin : yeah, Muskets not
[19/06/2008 21:20:02] binTravkin : massed pikes/maces/cats/chucks can do
[19/06/2008 21:20:08] |SafaN| : we can install versailles in mhasa, build theaters everywhere so it helps happiness
[19/06/2008 21:20:11] Lacero : seems to me that's even more reason not to go for wonders and mass produce knights instead
[19/06/2008 21:20:16] binTravkin : + a couple of knights to raid and attack unexpected
[19/06/2008 21:20:31] Impaler[WrG] : exactly the Drama->Music -> GA pays for itself
[19/06/2008 21:20:37] Lacero : oh, elephants :/
[19/06/2008 21:20:45] |SafaN| : if we don't need tech to break them we should flood them with units, before they get to musketmen
[19/06/2008 21:21:46] binTravkin : they can't get to muskets
[19/06/2008 21:21:48] Impaler[WrG] : flood of units will be a waste they can defend against that and earn huge experience, we need to wait for Grenidaers to take them out
[19/06/2008 21:22:00] binTravkin : I'm afraid theu
[19/06/2008 21:22:09] binTravkin : are going for Liberalism
[19/06/2008 21:22:45] Impaler[WrG] : They need Paper + Education + Liberalism, thats a LOT of research for them
[19/06/2008 21:23:16] Impaler[WrG] : we can complete Drama -> Music -> Powder -> Chemistry by the time they do that
[19/06/2008 21:23:53] Impaler[WrG] : and have a boat load of gold to upgrade an army much faster then they can put out Musketment
[19/06/2008 21:24:25] Impaler[WrG] : and even if they do Muskets are no better at defence then their current LongBow forces because they lack the 50% native City defence
[19/06/2008 21:25:16] binTravkin : it is a lot
[19/06/2008 21:25:28] binTravkin : but they can be researching at approx the same rate as us
[19/06/2008 21:25:41] binTravkin : because they have 300+ gold stockpiled and much less upkeep
[19/06/2008 21:25:53] binTravkin : and they also switched back to bureaucracy
[19/06/2008 21:26:10] Impaler[WrG] : whats our GDP graph look like?
[19/06/2008 21:26:58] binTravkin : we're at 2nd peak, back to where we were just before war started
[19/06/2008 21:27:06] binTravkin : they are much lower but rising
[19/06/2008 21:27:21] binTravkin : our gdp is 115, theirs 68
[19/06/2008 21:27:34] Lacero : we have more libraries
[19/06/2008 21:27:47] binTravkin : we cannot be sure
[19/06/2008 21:27:58] binTravkin : and it's a pretty intangible thing anyway
[19/06/2008 21:28:15] Impaler[WrG] : yea we can their culture graph shows they dont have more then one library
[19/06/2008 21:28:32] binTravkin : not anymore
[19/06/2008 21:28:45] Lacero : if we're researching at the same rate the only thing time buys us is that their elephants are less useful
[19/06/2008 21:28:51] binTravkin : their graph is now influenced by religion, so it's much harder to figure
[19/06/2008 21:28:53] binTravkin : what we're sure about is that they can go full steam for at least 6 more turns - they were full steam 1 turn already
[19/06/2008 21:28:53] Impaler[WrG] : well maybe 2 but still less then us
[19/06/2008 21:29:07] binTravkin : the count doesn't matter, what matters is what gets multiplied
[19/06/2008 21:29:48] binTravkin : our avg research per turn is a little above 200b
[19/06/2008 21:29:55] Impaler[WrG] : were going to be selling tech as I proposed, we can probably make > 1000 gold over the next 20 turns
[19/06/2008 21:30:15] binTravkin : yeah, but that is another intangible
[19/06/2008 21:30:35] binTravkin : ok, let's start over
[19/06/2008 21:30:46] binTravkin : Gunpowder right atm is useless from military perspective
[19/06/2008 21:31:02] binTravkin : which leaves us with Drama->Music / DR / Liberalism
[19/06/2008 21:31:18] binTravkin : DR is not much of use right now either and is quite expensive
[19/06/2008 21:31:22] Lacero : Drama -> Music -> Nationalism -> Military tradition??
[19/06/2008 21:31:39] Impaler[WrG] : no use with out Rifling
[19/06/2008 21:32:44] binTravkin : Drama->Music has some use - as noted the happiness stuff and free GA which in turn can help with DR
[19/06/2008 21:32:58] binTravkin : but that way we give GS head start on Liberalism
[19/06/2008 21:32:58] Lacero : ok. but liberalism just gets us another tech. Which we've already said won't help us
[19/06/2008 21:33:14] Impaler[WrG] : I'd commint to Drama + Music for now and decide on DR later
[19/06/2008 21:33:23] binTravkin : With Liberalism we get +1 free tech, which could be Economy in which case we get a free GM
[19/06/2008 21:34:24] Impaler[WrG] : also in 5 turns we will have the next GP and have a better idea of ware we can tech leep frog most effectivly
[19/06/2008 21:34:44] binTravkin : GM will aid us with Printing Press
[19/06/2008 21:34:48] Impaler[WrG] : I belive GA can pop to contribute to liberalism is that become available
[19/06/2008 21:35:12] Impaler[WrG] : PP is nearly useless for us with our coast focus
[19/06/2008 21:35:22] binTravkin : No GA first priority would be DR
[19/06/2008 21:36:16] binTravkin : We know that Mercs are now doing Philo
[19/06/2008 21:36:23] Impaler[WrG] : yes but once we know the Great person from points (could be a second GA) we can plan everything well
[19/06/2008 21:36:32] binTravkin : while Sara / Horde are likely doing their payment techs- Monarchy and CoL
[19/06/2008 21:36:39] binTravkin : so theoretically we're not rushing to get Music
[19/06/2008 21:37:04] binTravkin : but I agree that if we think that we can be first @ Liberalism we can take this sidestep to Drama
[19/06/2008 21:37:09] binTravkin : err Music
[19/06/2008 21:37:33] binTravkin : I'm just thinking perhaps trade Drama with Mercs ?
[19/06/2008 21:37:37] binTravkin : that would save us 2 turns
[19/06/2008 21:38:07] binTravkin : of research or 1 turns in absolute time if we propose this turn
[19/06/2008 21:38:20] binTravkin : and Drama will boost Music research
[19/06/2008 21:38:56] Impaler[WrG] : just do drama ourselves, Mercs would want a lot more for the tech then we are willing to spend
[19/06/2008 21:38:58] binTravkin : After we have Drama we can get Music in 3 turns
[19/06/2008 21:39:15] Impaler[WrG] : do it!
[19/06/2008 21:39:28] binTravkin : Why not trade compass vs Drama
[19/06/2008 21:39:36] binTravkin : Compass is 572, Drama 429
[19/06/2008 21:39:44] binTravkin : They should be pretty pleased with such a deal
[19/06/2008 21:40:08] Impaler[WrG] : cause were only 1 turn away so were efectivly tradeing 5:1 a horrible ratio
[19/06/2008 21:40:31] binTravkin : No we're 2 turns away
[19/06/2008 21:40:46] binTravkin : err, well we can finish it in a turn
[19/06/2008 21:40:52] binTravkin : hmm
[19/06/2008 21:41:05] binTravkin : but that will leave us without a turn of stockpile
[19/06/2008 21:41:14] binTravkin : which means we will have to spend an extra turn later
[19/06/2008 21:41:33] Impaler[WrG] : even 2 turns away the deal will take time to get made
[19/06/2008 21:41:50] Lacero : aren't we selling techs for cash though? we can probably make good money doing that for a while
[19/06/2008 21:42:27] Impaler[WrG] : thats my proposal, sell sell sell, run deficits off that income and research much faster
[19/06/2008 21:43:02] Lacero : also a stockpile in the bank isn't working for us. we don't have wall street yet
[19/06/2008 21:43:51] Impaler[WrG] : so my vote is Drama, can I get a second?
[19/06/2008 21:43:52] binTravkin : so the verdict is ?
[19/06/2008 21:44:05] binTravkin : Safan, Lacero ?
[19/06/2008 21:45:05] Lacero : ok, drama.
[19/06/2008 21:45:17] |SafaN| : drama
[19/06/2008 21:45:23] |SafaN| : we need more drama
[19/06/2008 21:45:36] binTravkin :
[19/06/2008 21:45:41] Impaler[WrG] : Duuun Dunnn Dunnnn!!!!
[19/06/2008 21:45:47] binTravkin : anyone wantš to review the midturn ?
[19/06/2008 21:45:58] |SafaN| : dun dun dun? you read oots?
[19/06/2008 21:45:59] Lacero : the surprise elephant ending to the last act was enough drama for me
[19/06/2008 21:46:09] Impaler[WrG] : just fill me in on the domestics
[19/06/2008 21:47:08] binTravkin : well, nothing much - 3 workers need orders - one in tundra on deer, 2 on the new gem mine @Hunoi
[19/06/2008 21:47:32] binTravkin : rearranged some workers in cities, whipped Forge in Shanghai, next turn to whip in Hong Kong
[19/06/2008 21:47:38] binTravkin : 2 pikes set to be produced
[19/06/2008 21:47:48] binTravkin : 1 in tassa, 1 in Dongjing
[19/06/2008 21:47:51] binTravkin : err
[19/06/2008 21:47:59] binTravkin : actually one
[19/06/2008 21:48:06] binTravkin : another queued in mhasa
[19/06/2008 21:48:10] Impaler[WrG] : whats in Bejing?
[19/06/2008 21:48:13] binTravkin : Bank
[19/06/2008 21:48:18] binTravkin : a couple more turns
[19/06/2008 21:48:21] binTravkin : then whip
[19/06/2008 21:48:26] Impaler[WrG] : good
[19/06/2008 21:48:28] binTravkin : Dongjing - making a garrison chuck
[19/06/2008 21:48:58] Impaler[WrG] : sounds good, I'd do Market next in Bejing
[19/06/2008 21:49:57] binTravkin : christian monastery first I think
[19/06/2008 21:50:02] binTravkin : cheap and good
[19/06/2008 21:50:17] Impaler[WrG] : ware do you want to send it?
[19/06/2008 21:51:08] binTravkin : monastery
[19/06/2008 21:51:22] binTravkin : but yeah, we should spread christianity around a bit
[19/06/2008 21:51:29] binTravkin : coastal cities will make good use of it
[19/06/2008 21:52:04] Impaler[WrG] : yeap Monestaries are a good tech bump and temples give happyness cusion
[19/06/2008 21:52:28] binTravkin : one important thing
[19/06/2008 21:52:35] binTravkin : what do we do with those knights then
[19/06/2008 21:52:43] binTravkin : do we really want them unto galley ?
[19/06/2008 21:52:46] Impaler[WrG] : Iron raid!!
[19/06/2008 21:52:56] binTravkin : wouldn't it be dangerous to use knights there?
[19/06/2008 21:53:09] binTravkin : ie if there's an elephant in that city it will come and kill one
[19/06/2008 21:53:22] |SafaN| : we will lose them, but we want them to build lots of units and no research anyways
[19/06/2008 21:53:39] Impaler[WrG] : and its very likely they escape successfully
[19/06/2008 21:53:48] Lacero : then we'd be better off pillaging the flood plains around their capital
[19/06/2008 21:53:52] Impaler[WrG] : their only vulnorable for one turn
[19/06/2008 21:54:35] Lacero : which is even more dangerous I know, but if it keeps them moving elephants up and down the country so much the better
[19/06/2008 21:55:03] Impaler[WrG] : once the Iron raid is done we can reload on Galley and move further south to go into the hinterlands and menace GS, keep them from expanding and maybe pillage some other improvments
[19/06/2008 21:55:11] |SafaN| : g2g bb
[19/06/2008 21:55:14] binTravkin : ok
[19/06/2008 21:55:26] binTravkin : I guess we leave other troops in forest for now
[19/06/2008 21:56:10] binTravkin : I will also upgrade them to combat I then, ok ?
[19/06/2008 21:56:40] binTravkin : damned!
[19/06/2008 21:56:42] Impaler[WrG] : can they be protected from Elephants better with anything else?
[19/06/2008 21:56:48] binTravkin : we've been exposed
[19/06/2008 21:56:54] Impaler[WrG] : ??
[19/06/2008 21:57:01] binTravkin : they have a longbow and a skirm on that hill where we last landed
[19/06/2008 21:57:05] binTravkin : they now see our galley
[19/06/2008 21:57:22] Impaler[WrG] : crap
[19/06/2008 21:57:57] binTravkin : it's around the corner
[19/06/2008 21:58:02] binTravkin : of mountain
[19/06/2008 21:58:05] binTravkin : perhaps they don't see it
[19/06/2008 21:59:33] binTravkin : anyone have an idea?
[19/06/2008 21:59:50] Impaler[WrG] : might have to do a simulation to find out
[19/06/2008 21:59:59] Impaler[WrG] : we have +1 sight over water dont we?
[19/06/2008 22:00:20] binTravkin : yes total range of 2
[19/06/2008 22:00:22] Impaler[WrG] : so theirs not aways a 1:1 "I see you, you see me"
[19/06/2008 22:00:31] binTravkin : yeah but it's a hill
[19/06/2008 22:01:07] binTravkin : damn my mistake
[19/06/2008 22:01:14] binTravkin : I should have moved it next to that mountain
[19/06/2008 22:01:21] binTravkin : then they'd definitely not see it
[19/06/2008 22:01:57] binTravkin : Let's hope they think we were to attack in the same place
[19/06/2008 22:02:12] binTravkin : and even if they don't additional alarm in their camp is always welcome
[19/06/2008 22:02:56] Impaler[WrG] : well we could pass by the Iron and go strait into the wasteland to harrass them their if we think its too risky
[19/06/2008 22:03:33] binTravkin : well that would give them even more time to prepare I think
[19/06/2008 22:03:36] Impaler[WrG] : also maybe we can sail in such a way as to make them think we will land their
[19/06/2008 22:04:19] Impaler[WrG] : the unclaimed territory to the west and south of GS is ver large we could easily hide in it and attack out of it with no warning
[19/06/2008 22:04:45] Impaler[WrG] : or kill barb cities (denying them the benifits)
[19/06/2008 22:05:13] Impaler[WrG] : or if their positioning fog busters we could slauther them (likely skirmisthers)
[19/06/2008 22:05:29] Impaler[WrG] : lots of oportunities present themselves
[19/06/2008 22:11:09] binTravkin : later we can transfer anoher 2 knights to there and their borders will become quite unsafe
[19/06/2008 22:11:28] Impaler[WrG] : indeed
[19/06/2008 22:12:12] Impaler[WrG] : what ever direct damage we do, were going to actualy do TWICE as much by deferting their resources away from Tech and economy
[19/06/2008 22:43:09] Impaler[WrG] : I think we could post
[19/06/2008 22:43:49] binTravkin : post what ?
[19/06/2008 22:43:50] binTravkin :
[19/06/2008 22:43:58] binTravkin : I already posted and sent and basta
[19/06/2008 22:44:14] Impaler[WrG] : cool

I agree with the decision to do music+drama