War plans pt.1

[binTravkin]

The coming war with Bananas is a very important issue, likely to change the status of our civilization from local powerhouse into world power if successful and might have quite bad consequences, e.g. 2 civs whose total territory is 4 times ours aligned against us.

Therefore it should be the whole team's decision which path to victory or defeat we take.

The following options have been suggested (in that order):



1. A concentrated step-by-step operation against Banana attacking their cities in order of distance (first being capital as of now).

pros:
- all our forces being in one place, the success chance is at maximum and risk is at minimum.

cons:
- we might be late to save Vox



2. A hybrid plan of 1. and 3. both to strike both Banana cap and 2nd city at one time (or close to that) with an option to go south and attack GS directly by another amphibious assault*.

pros:
- quick overtaking of Bananas if caught by surprise
- see 3rd point

cons:
- high risk of spoiling surprise by prolonged military buildup
- see 3rd point



3. Attempt to save Vox by an amphibious strike* on the Banana 2nd city with an option to go south and attack GS directly by another amphibious assault.

pros:
- good chance to save Vox from GS
- some chance of disrupting GS GNP by some pillaging

cons:
- good chance to be sandwiched and stuck in a stalemate not being able to take Banana cap due to long preparation time they've had and long logistics lines between us and Vox.
- good chance to waste a stack of units, should the amphibious assault on GS be executed



4. An amphibious assault* on GS - 3 or more galleys with chukos all the way down.

pros:
- some chance to disrupt GS GNP and production
- some chance to raze one city of theirs

cons:
- long travel and some chance to lose surprise
- essentially a hit and run strike
- no ability to actually impose the status of vassal on Vox



5. The Banana option



6. The Other option - write your own suggestion.



* - please note that anything amphibious means Beijing's production will be halted for quite a time as it will be building galleys. This of course also means greater exposure to enemy intelligence.

[ForesterSOF]

1

[binTravkin]

Forester did you actually click 'vote'? Don't see your vote in results

[Lacero]

I won't vote until we've discussed, but 1 seems best to me. As a bonus, we can give Iron Working to Vox and blame it on Banana desperately trying to find a way out of their situation (we would claim they think they can get away with it by blaming us).

If we're right and Bananas/GS don't trust each other right now (no tech trades) we should try and stop trust blooming in the situation we're about to create. That means not attacking both of them.

If they still agree to help each other because they think the situation demands it they still won't trust each other, because we're treating them both differently.

[edit: Maybe that doesn't work so well, Bananas are unlikely to help Vox if it means slowing down GS who may try to help them. I guess I need to think about this a bit more..]

[Mart]

I voted 1
Taking nanas cap is a must.

[PJayTycy]

I'd vote for 1 or 2.
A first wave of units to the capital (and probably walking/razing through the third city as well). We keep building some chucks after the first wave departs, to send to Banana South. The healthy units from the first wave also start walking south after capturing the capital and should meet with the second wave to have a combined force that marches through Banana South into Vox / GS territory.

No amphibious assault though...

[Impaler[WrG]]

It seems like their a consensus for Banana first policy and I can certainly see why. Theirs no way we could lose if we focus on them and we would have consolidated half the continent under out control being both first in cities and claimed territory.

The only wrinkle and hesitation I have is what to do with Vox in that situation. I estimate that their going to see their capitol fall in ~30 turns unless we bring a strong force into the area or give them substantial tech gifts very soon. Both options bring us into conflict with Storm.

I'm ok with throwing Vox to the wolves (in fact it would be kind of satisfying after JM's diplomatic blunders) but I'd rather see us dominate the whole continent by taking out GS. On the other hand at our present rate of growth do we anticipate being able to just out grow GS and finish them off in the Medieval era with Knight/Mace/Chuck/Cat combo. Then theirs the possibility of peaceful cooperation which has its advantages too.

Perhaps we should just take a neutral approach, Peel Bananas and see what GS dose, if they try to aid Nanas then we can retaliate by gifting to Vox and sending troops to their defense. If GS is amicable then let Vox fall and continue to tech trade for mutual benefit and see how our power levels grow, if we get into a position to crush them take it otherwise sign a pack

[ForesterSOF]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Perhaps we should just take a neutral approach, Peel Bananas and see what GS dose, if they try to aid Nanas then we can retaliate by gifting to Vox and sending troops to their defense. If GS is amicable then let Vox fall and continue to tech trade for mutual benefit and see how our power levels grow, if we get into a position to crush them take it otherwise sign a pack

Well summed up.

[binTravkin]

Regarding a chance to peacefully outgrow GS.
I wouldn't count on that.
Although we will have quite an advantage using the coastal cities, their big flood plain area will at least offset it.
Also, they appear to have 2 precious metal mines (likely both silver) near the core cities, which is a BIG advantage and it will take at least 30 turns for us to catch up with their GNP.

Our ability to outgrow them will likely depend on how successfully we turn our mfg goods advantage in GNP one and on usage of the bonuses from wonders (as we're likely to be building as much of them as everyone else taken together).

[Impaler[WrG]]

You know GS might soon run into Health caps due to all those floodplains, do we have any idea how many health resources they have access too? They might atleast hit a bump ware they need to build Aqueducts to keep growing. Their also going to be building a Vox killing army in around 15 turns that will consume valuable time, meanwhile their without any government civics or religion for some time so they will have nothing going for them but their terrain. If we can keep snowballing after Banana Peeling, gobbling up wonders like the Great Library, Great Lighthouse and pop a second GP before they even get their first we should be in excellent shape.

[binTravkin]

I think the health caps wont be a problem to GS - sheep, cows, rice and aqueducts should be solving them.
I was thinking more long term though.

GS will be building the army, yes, but so are we doing already (so the relative impact of military buildup on us is even bigger - each invested hammer now is worth more than the same hammer in 15 turns), not that I'm afraid of GS, I just think that outbuilding/outresearching GS will be very hard if not impossible.

[Mart]

Originally posted by binTravkin
... each invested hammer now is worth more than the same hammer in 15 turns), not that I'm afraid of GS, I just think that outbuilding/outresearching GS will be very hard if not impossible.

the game is on normal speed. so units move slower relative to "time flow", what you mean is that chukos will give us less advantage in later turns, coz better units will become available?

so the solution is in numbers:
more cities - more production centers, more hammers.
how much the economy can accomodate larger number of cities? (courthouses... markets, etc.)

[binTravkin]

No, I mean that one hammer on first turn is up to several hundred more worth than in endgame.
Why?
Because if you have not had that single hammer in 4000BC, it might hamper your growth so that by 2050AD you have several hundred less hammers than you could have had.
Of course, provided you don't have anything else to make up for that loss.

Actually now I think that our war investment will net much more return per hammer than GS's, as we have more and better developed cities and territory to conquer.

We'll have all the cities we can upkeep in some 25 turns, but by then we should also have GL, Currency and CoL which will let us support even more (especially coastal) cities.

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Perhaps we should just take a neutral approach, Peel Bananas and see what GS dose, if they try to aid Nanas then we can retaliate by gifting to Vox and sending troops to their defense. If GS is amicable then let Vox fall and continue to tech trade for mutual benefit and see how our power levels grow, if we get into a position to crush them take it otherwise sign a pack

I think we really have to send iron working to Vox, no matter what happens. We kind of promised that.

[binTravkin]

Yeah, but tell them to not research stuff in between.
Otherwise it'll be easy as 1+1 to detect that we gifted it.

Well, they can start on Monarchy if they really feeling like researching