900 BC The First Step To Enlightenment

[Lacero]

Are they any docs on how many points you get from a tech?

I've found this which gives a lot of info on the number of beakers made (some useful micro stuff for us there too) http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/stra...h_research.php

skip down to the repercussions section if you want to avoid the maths

[binTravkin]

PJay already made a list of power points from tech, the other points depend solely from era IIRC (see Foreign Intelligence Datalinks).

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Let's hang around in #ac when we can.

I'm in #apolyton, #c4ac and #ac now and will be there for about 2.5 hours

[PJayTycy]

I'm away from IRC now.

I've got the Vox tech path discovered completely, but not yet GS:

======= : 0006 : +006 : tech discovered : 1 tech : hunting
======= : 0013 : +007 : tech discovered : 2 tech : mining
======= : ---- : ---- : 1 scout
4000 BC : 0039 : +026 : capital founded (+ 1 pop, + 1 wonder)
3760 BC : 0045 : +006 : tech discovered : 3 tech : mysticism (71 in 6 turns)
3720 BC : 0051 : +006 : population growth : 2 pop (22 in 7 turns)
3360 BC : 0058 : +007 : tech discovered : 4 tech : polytheism (143 in 10 turns) => founded hinduism
3360 BC : 0064 : +006 : population growth : 3 pop (24 in 9 turns)
2960 BC : 0109 : +006 : population growth : 4 pop (26 in 10 turns)
2800 BC : 0116 : +007 : tech discovered : 5 tech : archery (85 in 14 turns)
2760 BC : 0122 : +006 : tech discovered : 6 tech : the wheel (85 in 1 turn, slingshot or popped)
2360 BC : 0159 : +006 : tech discovered : 7 tech : animal husbandry (143 in 10 turns)
1440 BC : 0172 : +013 : tech discovered : 9 tech : horseback riding (357 in 23 turns)
1000 BC : 0179 : +007 : tech discovered : 10 tech : bronze working (171 in 11 turns)
0925 BC : 0185 : +006 : city 2 founded : 4+1 pop


(still need to update the foreign intelligence datalinks, but I have to leave now)

[Lacero]

2800 BC : 0116 : +007 : tech discovered : 5 tech : archery (85 in 14 turns)
2760 BC : 0122 : +006 : tech discovered : 6 tech : the wheel (85 in 1 turn, slingshot or popped)

I was looking at this earlier, I figured they were power techs due to the power spike. I couldn't see why it took so long though, 15 turns is enough time to research both archery AND The Wheel given the tech rate they achieved on polytheism.

Does gold obtained by pillaging count towards gnp? If so we can see when GS started rampaging through their city.

The only reason I can see is that they were heading for the wheel, then GS tore up the country side, and they switched to archery knowing they had no horses and no way to use chariots or build roads. Then they finished the wheel because it was quick (and to stop decay) and went for animal husbandry to see if they had any horses they could use, as that was probably their only hope at the time.

I'm going to try and look at the GS path and use this timeline to work out what they were trying to do with their techs, probably when they realised they'd locked vox down they'll have started beelining to cats.

[Lacero]

For GS to get archery they must have got hunting, the only power spike that matches the power for hunting is their second tech, in 3160BC:

3160 BC : 0064 : +007 : tech discovered : 4 tech : Hunting (? in 14 turns)

I would have thought their first tech would be agriculture, with all the flood plains they're in, but the numbers don't quite add up. 6 turns for agriculture right at the start (base 60 tech) and then 14 turns for hunting after growing?

So, maybe they met vox around this time with a warrior/skirmisher, and switched from pottery (a guess due to flood plains) to hunting to get archery and beat them up. Thats a lot of decay on pottery by the time they go back to it, but given their situation I can see them justifying it. I've got no other ideas on those numbers, I hope this is slightly helpful

[Chaos Theory]

Tech doesn't decay.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I've done a very slick route plan focusing on the fastest paths to critical tiles ware we need to make important decisions. The key plots are magenta squares and are identified by Letters. The paths are in yellow arrows, navel routes assume 2 movement galleys and no roads, adding roads can considerably speed up the units in several areas. Red Arrows are those inside an opponents cultural borders and thus require a state of war / open borders to pass through.

A - Barbaric crossroads - The plot from which we fork north to Banana Capitol or south to their second city. We should certainly be able to road to this spot meaning its only 2 and a half moves from Tass.

B - Banana Border - The last plot outside the cultural borders of the banana second city. If we can deceive Bananas into thinking the stack is headed to Storm then this is the point ware we need to back stab them and declare war.

C - Equator Bay - The landing beach for a navel attack on Bananas south, troops would unload the the adjacent green arrow and have 3 turns to march to the city. according to my calculations its 8 turns of sailing from Beijing not 7. If we road everything between Tass -> A -> B it will be a mere 7 turns total actually making the land route faster, with just Tass -> A roaded its 9 turns and with no roads its 12 just barely longer then the navel route.

D - Southern Gate - The gateway to the south, from here any units coming down from the north would either head for Vox territory to defend it or move to strike Storm. I'de prefer not to manualy march units overland that far unless Vox builds a road towards this area allowing us to move southward faster.

E - Utah Beach - The north most point we might want to make a landing. It allows the fastest return trip for Galleys to make a second landing, though I wouldn't want us to be depending on a second wave. The other advantage is that we could probably sneak the troops into Vox territory without Storm seeing it.

F - Juno Beach - A balanced position, good for attack and for combining forces with Vox or moving into Vox territory if Storm should prove strong.

G - Sword Beach - The prime attack position unloading directly adjacent to Strom's north city for immediate attack. We would probably be seen as we sail through F. The hills also protect our stack against any possible counter attack.

Theirs a slim chance of a passage through an archipelago of Islands, this might save as much as 4 turns off the voyage to the southern beach heads. Requiring a Galley to explore the area first might take too long though.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Route Map v1

[Impaler[WrG]]

Given my findings that a navel landing for the attack of the Banana south is no faster then a land march I propose the following general battle plan.

A road is built from Tass the the Banana Capitol, their has been extensive diplo ground work for this and will be completly nonthreatening. Galleys will be built as fast as possible in Beijing and the first used to explore the potential existence of a shortcut archipelago.

The first troop wave of 4-5 units will march overland to the Banana south, we will either say this force is headed to help Vox or keep it secret until we declare war. As the first wave moves south 2 Galleys will move to B (Equator Bay). The second wave will be built during the transit and may move towards Banana Capitol primarily to protect us from any kind of retaliation. After the first wave takes the souther city the remaining units will load in the shadowing Galleys and sail south. The Second wave stationed at A (Barbarian Crossroads) will have boarded its designated Galleys a turn or two earlier to bring together the whole force to one of the three anti-Strom beaches. A third wave of forces Finishes off the Banana capitol and their third city.

All the forces sent to the southern continent will be considered expendable with the goal of doing maximum damage to Storm, destroying as many cities and pillaging as much of their territory as possible. Without coastal cities of any significant strength and our large mass of Galleys they can pull the same counter attack on us and and the much healed and tech boosted Vox will be able to provide containment as we enter another phase of Wonder gobbling and Teching into the Middle ages.

[N35t0r]

I'd concentrate on taking out the nanas before doing anything against GS...

[-SafaN-]

do u think gs will watch us taking over banana cities and doing nothing? Also, about this time is the moment we will be trading techs to vox. GS will declare war, we just have to hit them unprepared

[binTravkin]

do u think gs will watch us taking over banana cities and doing nothing? Also, about this time is the moment we will be trading techs to vox. GS will declare war, we just have to hit them unprepared

Hitting GS unprepared will be quite hard for following reasons:
- they're the first who will know we're seriously gearing up
- around the same time they'll be building ellies and cats to take Vox

Certainly we can expect much less result by attacking GS than Bananas.

A road is built from Tass the the Banana Capitol, their has been extensive diplo ground work for this and will be completly nonthreatening.

If we attack southern Banana city, the diplomatic part should be omitted.

Galleys will be built as fast as possible in Beijing and the first used to explore the potential existence of a shortcut archipelago.

If we build them as fast as possible, there will be no time to explore as the next galley will take only 2 turns to produce.


Looking at the map following target reach times can be predicted:

Banana cap - 8 turns
Banana 2nd - 10 turns overland, 11-12 turns by sea
GS north - 15 turns

GS Construction ETA should be no more than 14 turns from now (they've invested one turn already).

That basically means if we dispatch a regiment to GS straight away, without attacking Bananas first, we will get there in 20 turns best and get right into hell as they produce their first wave of cats / ellies.
Also, note that the sea route we will be taking will be in GS north range of sight, so they will be alerted a turn before we land and two turns before we can act on them, which is enough to rush their ellies/cats and get them into northern city or near.

[Lacero]

I don't think we can expect to charge head on at GS and Bananas and win. Taking out Bananas first, and yes alerting GS, means we'll be strong enough with vox to take them down later. The travel time is a problem for them too but they don't have any coastal cities.

I made a model world of the land around the GS cities, and I'm trying to work out how they grew a pop and researched a tech in 6/7 turns. It'll give me something to do over the weekend

[binTravkin]

Actually, looking at the map I see route taking which we can somewhat surprise GS - we end the move with galleys right north of F, then next turn go to G and unload (IIRC troops can be unloaded even if Galleys have moved) towards the city.

That could be quite a surprise unless GS guess our plans.


The attack on GS is needed as a feint and relief for Vox.
Once GS is occupied with our 4 chukos down there, Vox is likely to push them back and recover a little, meanwhile we take Bananas and our main force arrives at south.

I think we can defeat Bananas even if we dispatch those first 4 troops south - that gives us more time chopping, for increased production, also the combined production of Xian(13) and Tassagrad(17) is bigger than the total of Bananas, and that's not even counting the technological advantage.